How to Quit Your Job

by Mark Suster on March 10, 2010

quit jobFile this under entrepreneurial advice

I know that this will sound like a random post topic for startup advice but I promise it’s relevant.  You actually need to give advice to nearly every employee whom you offer a job to on how to best quit their job.  This is important to improve conversion rates of accepted offers / joiners, shorten the time-to-join ratio and the improve the ability of that employee to maintaing good relations with their former employer.

When I started blogging I had an idea.  I would take all of the one-on-one conversations that I have with entrepreneurs from the things I’ve learned and just write them up for anybody to read.  This is advice that I end up giving ALL THE TIME and every CEO of a company I’m involved with will have heard this from me. (also, please remember my disclaimer – I’m not a lawyer)

You just made an offer to a new employee to join your company.  It might be a VP of Sales, Marketing or Technology.  Or it may just be a junior programmer, sales rep or accountant.  The reality is the same.  In a startup you want them to join immediately.  Tomorrow if possible.

Yet they of course need to serve notice.  There is always some version of the following scenario:

- they’ve worked at their employer for 3-4 years

- they really like their boss

- they don’t want to leave on bad terms

- their boss asks them to just work 4-6 weeks so he / she isn’t left in a bad position

- better yet, they’ve said,  ”help me understand what we could improve so you’d be happier staying”

Should you just let them deal with this themselves? No, of course not!  You’re an entrepreneur – you’re allowed to be a bit of a control freak.  I leave nothing to chance.  Left to their own devices most employees will muck up their exit.  Why?  They quit jobs very seldom (hopefully, otherwise, please reconsider whether you really want to hire them.  Job hoppers NEVER make good employees.  Kind of obvious even though many people overlook this).  Yet if your company is growing you deal with people quitting their employers to join you all the time.  So you have more experience in helping to manage the process.

I operate on the principle that you’re most vulnerable in any deal immediately after you’ve won.  I believe the same is true in recruiting.  So your goal is to get the employee working in your company as quickly as possible and with the least amount of collateral damage.

How do you deal with the time pressure issues? Sales people are normally tossed out the door when they quit their jobs.  So that one is usually easiest.  But for all other roles it can be tough.  Employees who are about to join you get “guilted” into sticking around longer than is necessary.  My argument to the incoming employee was always, “look, BigCo is never really going to miss you materially once you’re gone – it just feels like that.  They’re going to pressure you into staying longer than you should. Don’t.  Trust me, if they were doing layoffs they wouldn’t keep you an extra month just to be nice.  They key is to be very professional and courteous on the way out.  Then you’ll be fine.  And we really, really need you in two weeks so please do your best not to get suckered into extra time.”

I had a tactic of writing out the line of reasoning for the employee so they knew what to say. The follow are the employees talking points

- I’ve been offered a role in a new startup that is an exciting new opportunity for me. It’s a lot of responsibility and has fantastic upside.  I’m really excited.

- So unfortunately I’m going to turn in my notice

- They’re pressuring me to start next week (this is called “anchoring” (setting short time frames)) but I obviously told them that it would be unfair to give you less than 2 weeks’ notice. So I just want to confirm with you that you want me to stay the full two weeks ( a “presumptive close” (which makes it sound like, “of course this is the normal sequence of events. I’m just confirming what I’m sure you’ll agree.))

Employer: “Gosh, this is a really crucial time. I really need you to stay for 4-6 weeks if we’re to hit our deadlines.” (invariably this is always their position).

- I understand why you’d feel that way and I’d love to help. But it’s super important to me that I don’t lose this opportunity and I’m 100% sure I’m going to eventually join. So I’d really like to work with you to minimize any pain for you. I can take those two weeks (again, anchoring and presumtive close) and really do a thorough transition to anybody you’d like. I’m happy to put in evenings and weekends to make this transition smooth. Please let me know how to best help. I know that my new company is being unfair in asking for a week so I’ve pushed for a full two weeks.

Me to future employee, “I know that they’re going to put the pressure on. You need to be resolute. Professional, polite, helpful and hard-working. But resolute. They’re going to try and get you to work longer. They might even try to convince you to stay. In reality they’ll get over your leaving. But we REALLY need you now.”

Why am I such a control freak about this? Noting good has ever come out of a potential employee staying longer at their previous company.  It’s more time that they can be flipped into staying.  They’re always guilted into staying longer than they should.  In this scenario – I lose.  Thus, I try to leave nothing to chance.

How should they talk to their boss about why they’re leaving?  The most common mistakes people make is telling their employer why they were unhappy.  This accomplishes nothing.

Only two outcomes – 1) they’re bitter about the things you told them needed to improve.  Let’s face it – they’ll never improve.  And they’ll invent that history that you were the bad guy for complaining.  Seem it happen – I promise.  No matter how hard they push in the exit interview don’t offer up the dirt.

2) They use what you’re unhappy about as a means to convince you to stay.  ”Oh, you didn’t have enough leadership opportunities?  We’ll put you in charge of this 10-person tech department.  I always remind employees, “if they really cared about your progression they would have done that proactively.  If they’re doing it now it’s only because they feel they have a gun to their head.  If you weren’t happy before this superficial change is only window dressing. They’re just rolling out the red carpet for you when you’re on the way out the door. If they were like this before what are they going to be like for the next few years of your job.

So my script for employees is to say, “I’m leaving for personal reasons.  I loved my time at YourCo.  I learned so much.  I grew.  I build fantastic friends and I’ll always be part of the alumni club.  But it was just time for me to move on to another opportunity.  It wasn’t YourCo.  It was me.  I was ready for the change.”  My main message is to:

- say you’re leaving for “personal reasons” and no matter how hard you’re pressed don’t give in and expound.  It’s just personal reasons.  Nobody can argue with this.  Nobody can offer you a better role to improve “personal reasons”- when asked what this really means just avoid answering.  ”You know, I was really happy here.  I just have some personal reasons why it’s time for a change.  NewCo seems like a great opportunity for me.”

Summary Recruiting is a very time-consuming and expensive exercise.  Most people put in herculean efforts into the process until the time of the offer being accepted.  And then they leave the rest to fate.  You enter a risky period after they’ve accepted.  You need to get them in your doors as quickly as possible.  There’s nothing worse than losing an employee that said yes but never joined.

One last hack For executive-level hires I like to get a press release written and work with the incoming employee on the wording and importantly timing of the release.  I like to discuss with them a timeline for announcement for 2 reasons: 1) it starts to build in emotional commitment and 2) you get a chance to test their resolve to joining.  You can always tell the person that is not persuaded when they’re not engaged in the press release process.  If they’re not engaged you can: 1) spend more effort making sure they’re bought in or 2) keep more back-up candidates warm.

UPDATE: Thanks to a well placed question by Jason Wolfe, I’ve added some comments below about the UK, Germany and France and how those employment situations differ.  I know that in the entertainment industry in the US things work differently (long term contracts).  If anybody has any experiences on foreign employment issues or US issues in entertainment or otherwise please feel free to add in the comments.

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  • BS
    Many thanks. I'm going through this now and your post has helped me tremendously.
  • Ken
    Great post, Mark. Provides some awesome insight from both the employee's (my) perspective as well as the startup!
  • mattblumberg
    Great post...though I have mixed feelings about it as an entrepreneur on the hiring end.

    You say: There’s nothing worse than losing an employee that said yes but never joined. -- I totally agree!

    You say: You need to get them in your doors as quickly as possible. -- Here's where I'm not entirely certain. There's much to what you say about not having someone on the way in get suckered into staying months on end at their existing job. But I always feel like I want to set the right tone with someone coming into my company as well. I don't like to apply huge amounts of pressure so they worry that they've gotten themselves into a sweat shop. I want people to take time off between jobs so they're ready to charge in with a clear head. I want them to feel good about their transition.

    Usually there's a happy medium one can negotiate here.
  • I must say that from the vantage point of a recruiter I agree with most of this. The point about not backing off just because the offer has been accepted is especially poignant. Most recruiters learn early on that "recruiting" doesn't end with the acceptance of the offer and sometimes not even for several months. It is not uncommon for someone to leave within the first six months to return to their previous employer.

    A soapbox moment here: Companies put herculean effort into RECRUITING and then ignore the new employee's TRANSITION into the company. Sort of like putting all the effort into preparing for the wedding and not paying much attention to the marriage. For the most successful hires, there should be an intentional transition plan. Just sayin...
  • Thx for another great article. I'm always looking forward to seeing new posts from you in my rss reader!
  • brianli
    Mark, again great post. Can you share your transition leaving BigCo to become an entrepreneur? How did you time it? Love to hear your perspective if/how your POV changes for consultants/bankers who work in an intense project/deal time-line basis.

    Ultimately, is it ok to leave mid-engagement? Is it fair to your team? Is it fair to the employer, let’s just say “ConsCo A”? ;) Is it fair to the client? Perhaps one should stick with your line re: “Trust me, if they were doing layoffs they wouldn’t keep you an extra month just to be nice.”
  • Great article Mark. My only gripe with your article is I wished you ran spell check on it before you posted :)
  • Nice post. Good considerations for doing what's best for both the individual employee and the company they're going to join.
  • jeffsilbert
    My first post on your blog -- how have your portfolio firms particularly in the area of sales scaled their teams. What is the breakdown between social networking/networking vs recruiters(contingency/retained) in terms of % of hires and also track record (looking back in hindsight on performance).
  • Thanks for commenting! It really depends on level. Just recruiting a VP Sales and went through an executive recruiter. Done some contingency search. Done some LinkedIn. All over the place, really. It's so situational.
  • Using anchoring and presumptive close... very nice Mark. Basically you're letting the employee play Good Cop with their boss, using you/the absentee New Employer as Bad Cop.

    And I am paranoid about the most vulnerable moment after a close right there with you. I have only ever lost a couple of people, when their boss literally offered them a 50% raise and a big promotion on the spot. Invariably those people come back to you 3 months later when they realize it was just a negotiating tactic and they're now even more unhappy at their existing job.

    Of course you were uncharacteristically a "nice guy" in this post... you can lay it on MUCH thicker than that, e.g. the candidate can tell their boss that you have other people you'll bring in if they can't start in a week.
  • re: good cop / bad cop - yeah, perhaps I should have explained it that way. That's part of my verbal pitch to employees. Make me the bad guy.

    re: your last paragraph - that's probably a little bit further than I would actually go but I understand the sentiment.

    Thanks for the input.
  • Yeah you don't want to use scare tactics, just an example that when quitting your job sometimes you need to be armed with a reason. The boss very likely may ask "well, why do they need you in 2 weeks. It won't kill them to wait another couple of weeks, they're no more important than we are" etc.
  • marklanday
    Mark,
    Excellent post. As an executive recruitment professional, I agree with your thoughts. The on-boarding process starts at the beginning of the recruitment process, not as an after thought to avoiding counter offers. It doesn't reflect well to loose good people and sometime buying time is an option for the other company. Another method is early in the process is walking the candidate backwards on the calendar from the press release date to current date.
  • Mickipedia
    Your timing couldn't have been better on this one. Thanks, Mark!
  • Awesome. And stay tuned for Launchpad announcements soon!
  • Anonymous
    Mark,
    Have you written or can you write a post about the best way to fire an early employee (not a founder) at a startup? The employee in this example is someone who is not "punching above their weight" as you expected.
  • I want to write this. I have it on my list. It's such a sensitive topic that I've been resisting but I promise to cover it some day. I get lots of unpleasant input when I say things that upset people and I know that this topic will be a landmine. Maybe I'll save it for a week when I'm feeling like I have particularly thick skin ;-)
  • For better or worse, I've had a lot of experience leaving companies (for all sorts of reasons) over my relatively short career. I've also recruited employees away from other companies on many occasions. That includes experience in the UK, which was rightly mentioned as an area where different rules apply (see: "gardening leave"). However, I've never "hopped" anywhere - figuratively or literally. I won't rip you for this as it's beside the point.

    I agree with all of your comments and they align with my experience on both sides of the fence (table?). I've hired lots of folks where I knew that their manager would try to keep them, either an extended notice period or outright (that's why I hired them). My view has always been "shame on them" for letting a star employ leave and I make that case when giving them the offer. Besides, the type of person you want in your business (which is why you gave them the offer to begin with) will be as quick and effective in bundling-up and transitioning their duties as they will be in picking up the new ones at your company. So I've found 2 weeks to be plenty of time to wrap things up.

    From the former employer perspective, most managers are smart enough to know that, once you've made the decision to leave, you are mentally checked-out and you should go - sooner the better. That way, the organization can move on and there is less time for you to talk to co-workers about why you're leaving. If the candidate is a star (and they'd better be!), it's a huge blow to that company's morale to see you go. Worse if it's a drawn out process.

    Counter offers are acts of desperation. As departing employee, I've never given them consideration and made sure to communicate my excitement for "the next challenge" for which I was leaving. This usually makes it clear that it isn't about money, or anything else that might be offered - cutting them of at the pass. As a manager, I believe in the Netflix approach (http://techcrunch.com/2009/08/05/other-companie...), which says that if someone working for you said that they were going to leave to join another company, what would you offer them to stay? If nothing, you should kindly terminate them now (with generous severance). If you would fight to keep them, give it to them now.
  • It is also worth noting the irony of the "less is more" approach when giving reasons for your departure. The same rule applies when terminating someone. Of course you need to have cause and provide the proper documentation and process. But when actually delivering the news, it's best not to get drawn into specifics. It only opens wounds, introduces emotions (not good), and opens the door to argument.
  • Agree entirely. And I don't think that your previous points are a million miles from my points of view. Thanks for contributing.
  • Rhatta
    Only one point where we disagree: I've had 8 jobs in 12 years with an average tenure of less than 2 years. 3 of those companies had ".com" in their name circa 1998-2000 and no longer exist. I should get a pass on those. 1 management change that involved moving the company headquarters from SF to NJ. 1 recalled transfer to London where I chose to stay, and 1 necessitated by my move back to the US 2 years later. Only 2 instances where I actually sought and found a new opportunity while currently employed - I give no extra credit to people who go down with a sinking ship.

    I might be an exceptional case of either bad luck, bad decisions or both. I suspect that your response will be that there are exceptions to every rule (though I saw a "full stop" in one of your comments) and that I might be one. But I know lots of talented and dedicated young entrepreneurs whose formative professional years have been book-ended by 9/11 and 2009. And if they were doing anything interesting, it was high risk. Not exactly smooth sailing conditions...
  • OK, fair enough. I DO give a carve out for 1997-2001. And if there was some degree of high change for a while I can live with it if it's balanced with 1-2 placed where they were for 5-6 years to show that there is some loyalty in their toolkit. Yes, each case is different. Still, you end up with a red flag when you change a lot and it's one more hurdle versus other potential employees.
  • Never came across such a problem as choosing between a good job offer and not that satisfying current position. A hesitation (long transition) might take place only if employee is not very interested in the offer. At least everyone must understand, which job is appealing and what position has more benefits.
  • This might be true with you personally but not my experience. Many people feel guilty leaving and would rather stay longer than cause waves.
  • Sindy
    Your statement 'job-hoppers' never make good employees couldn't be further from the truth. Why would an employee stay in a dead-end job or with companies that cannot provide growth? There are a million reasons why employees might job hop in the course and paths of life...stereotyping is bad business sense.
  • I disagree. Hiring job hoppers at startups is a non starter. Full stop. Definition - somebody who's average tenure is 2 years at most jobs. 4 years isn't "hopping." 3 depends.
  • mmeehan
    Great post and I agree with you Mark. Whenever you start to qualify their hopping by using excuses like "dead end job" or lack of growth within the company, I start to question their decision making process in the first place. Were they thinking long term when they took the job or were they after a short term salary or title fix? Serial job hoppers are never going to be satisfied and always see the greener pastures.
  • This is so true. I'd rather hire employees who have a record of staying in a company for more than 2 years. And that's why I offer a competitive package to my employees, and when I see my employees staying for more than 6 months, I make sure all the more that they are better taken care of.
  • Moschop
    " Job hoppers NEVER make good employees." Oh come on, play fair. I plan to move on every three or four years, but I like to think I do a good job everywhere I work.
  • You probably do a good job anywhere. But for a startup I prefer not to waste cycles on people who I think are looking to leave. There's too many other talented people out there. BTW, 4 years isn't job hopping. My definition is people who change jobs every 2 years. There are many of these.
  • Great post. I had actually stated I was leaving for my MBA 3-4 months before I actually left (had to do it in order to get references) and, although the environment was a bit more lukewarm afterwards, I think the company's managers understood my decision and I was able to carry on doing good work.
  • Yeah, usually in this case people respect the employee. Harder when you want to leave to go to another job!
  • Nice post, Mark.

    I would like to add that in Russia 2 week notice is a law for both sides.
    You may always arrange shorter or longer term, if it's ok for you and your employer/employee.
  • Fantastic post. I especially love the NLP references (presupposition; anchoring) as these techniques are incredibly useful.

    Do you find that employees who previously worked at "BigCo"s (as you put it) really make good startup employees? Having hired several times in the past, in general, I found that employees who were used to working at big companies generally didn't like the startup environment where someone wasn't around to manage them all the time. I typically hired fresh out of school to avoid the notice problem.

    Curious as to your viewpoint on this.

    -Erica
  • BigCo is fine if they have subsequently worked at a startup. Plus, for some roles (like developers) it can be fine straight away. Depends. I prefer people with some startup experience, though.
  • These are all great points Mark. Another small tip I like to add when advising my candidates on their resignation process is to not disclose the monetary components of their future comp package. This is pure gold and ammunition to the current employer for the extension of a counter-offer. I sometimes even advise them to take it a step further and not disclose the specifics of the company/role they will be joining - this is also a big point of ammunition that counter-offers tend to stem from.

    Another thing I like to do before even going into these tips is to never assume that my candidate doesn't actually want a counter-offer. Sometimes candidates leverage new offers just to get their existing situation improved. So before letting them go in there and resign, I ask them point blank whether they want a counter offer or not. Most people interestingly enough say "no, but I'll gladly listen to anything they have to say". This is a red flag and needs to be handled before notice is given. You can do this by explaining to the candidate that there are two ways to give notice - one way that will generate a counter offer and one way that doesn't. This is also a good time to question their genuine interest in accepting and actually joining your company. More times than not, this process strengthens the chances of your offer being accepted and along with the other points/tips reduces the liklihood of a counter-offer being taken.
  • Great input, Boris. I appreciate it. All correct.
  • ted
    ...to whom you offer a job.
  • "Job hoppers NEVER make good employees" - I'm not sure I agree with a blanket statement such as this, and submit that evaluating a prospective employee's staying power is a bit more nuanced than simply time spent at a company. In highly volatile industries, or a highly volatile economy, job change is often a necessity and is not necessarily a negative.

    In my own case, over the arc of a 30-year career I've been bought out, shut down, laid off, and yes - in a couple of instances I actually quit - once to keep my skills moving forward when my employer was not, and once to start my own company. Is that a red flag?

    My father started working summers in High School as a draftsman at a global company, and retired from that same company 50 years later as the Chief Engineer - but as attractive as that sounds, those days are gone gone gone.

    I've actually faced the opposite problem - I was once asked in an interview, if I knew my company was a fading rose in a growing segment, why was I so naive as to stay so long? There is no virtue in blind loyalty, particularly when that loyalty is not reciprocal - and I'd rather hire someone that was fiercely focused on expanding their skills and the breadth of their impact in the work that they love than someone who stays with a company year after year for no good reason.
  • I stand by my statement. That doesn't mean there aren't valid reasons people changed jobs - as you say, "bought out, shut down, laid off" and even made some moves. But I think you know what I'm talking about. The person who's had 7 jobs in 12 years. When you interview them and ask why they changed jobs they often answer, "I got headhunted" or "I was offered more money." In these instances, there is only one valid response, "hasta la vista, baby."
  • kevinJs
    Good post, Mark. On the flip side, for those times where your employee comes to you giving their resignation, I rarely ever try to talk them into staying. My view is that if they're willing to leave now, anything I do to get them to stay only delays having the same conversation again in a few months. Looking back, as an employer, there are some things you should have maybe done differently if you were serious about their retention, but employees sometimes leave for reasons you cannot control. Best for you to accept that, move on, and help them leave on good terms. Who knows, where ever they land they could end up being a customer, supplier, partner, etc of yours one day. Just my opinion.
  • Agree completely. I have only ever "saved" somebody once. And I didn't regret it. Generally I advise against it.
  • Ken Jackson
    Personally I think an approach in the middle makes sense. I'm happy to give my current employer some leeway. Sure, if there were layoffs they wouldn't give me a months notice, but frankly theres probably good reason for that. With that said, I've seen companies give 6+ months severance during layoffs.

    Additionally, I've seen startups be pushy when it comes to getting employees to start. My rule is that if an employer is pushy before day 1, expect them to by tyrants when you begin ("Oh your mom died? Sure, today take a full 30 minutes for lunch, although we need pictures of the casket as proof -- just company policy"). If your new employer is trying to control you before day one, take note.
  • I think that's a stretch, Ken. Just because an employers wants you to join sooner doesn't mean that they're immoral and not willing to be open when your mom dies. That's a slippery slope argument. I don't buy it.
  • Brilliant points there. I've been using the same tricks over my career and it has always paved of. All my past managers are still in touch, happy to chat with. Though few of them were absurd, I never uttered a word why I left them.
    "Personal reasons" is a great excuse no one dares to ask of atleast in all big firms.
  • Great post about a part of working that people forget is a skill. I made this one of the three featured links on my Other Thought for the Day blog:
    http://otherthoughtfortheday.blogspot.com/2010/...

    All the best, Ted
  • So, I assume that you actually DO pressure them to join in a week, or is this positional negotiation at its worst?

    I have to say, if I was about to join a company where the new boss told me to lie to my old boss before I even started I would walk out straight away.

    That's not a hack, it's dishonest.
  • where did I tell anybody to lie? please point that out. If I did I'll gladly retract. I never ask people to do that and I don't do it myself.
  • You had them state several times that you were pressuring them to join
    in 1 week. Is this actually true?

    Personally I'd rather have an employee that's better at coming up with
    creative, mutually advantageous solutions than employing bargaining
    pressure.

    Jason
  • I think you're taking my words a bit further than I had intended them to. I try to offer a line of negotiation since I have to deal with this issue more than most people who quit their jobs very seldom. That's all. It's not manipulation - it's negotiation. And I'm just arming them with sound talking points. In the end it's up to them to put the words in their own tone.
  • I get that, but my point is that you're teaching your brand new employees a
    BAD way of negotiating even before day one! (I will leave the encouragement
    to lie out of this, since I may just be very anal about that personally.)

    Your first interactions with new employees are so critical. Impressions are
    being formed and they're learning what "the boss" (you) likes. You have an
    opportunity to show them a shitty way of negotiating, or start showing them
    how to creatively solve problems in ways that will benefit you more than the
    shitty negotiating would anyway.

    Let me give you a quick example k?

    Let's say I'm hiring a programmer (I'll call him Sawyer because I was
    watching Lost last night) and I say "you really need to start in two weeks,
    so here's a script you can consider for ideas, it tells you to tell your
    current employer that I'm pressuring you to leave in one week, so they'll be
    more okay with two in the end". So it works, fine. Sawyer starts in two
    weeks.

    Now let's say a year down the road I'm working on a project with Sawyer and
    it's behind. I'm two weeks away from shipping to my first customer and
    there's three weeks worth of work. There is a certain set of features that
    need to be done, and the customer is demanding them on the promised
    deadline. They absolutely have to be done or it won't ship. So Sawyer is
    working directly with the customer, so in his mind it's a choice between
    working nights and weekends to make the customer happy or dealing with (or
    losing) an angry or upset customer.

    He wants to not work nights and weekends. This is his position. In his
    mind the problem is now "work nights and weekends, or work nights and
    weekends". "Work two more weeks or not work two more weeks". He's not
    thinking about the underlying interests and trying to address THOSE, he is
    trying to address YOUR HEAD.

    There are any number of creative solutions to the above scenario where the
    product could still ship and Sawyer wouldn't have to work nights and
    weekends. But I haven't trained him to think creatively I've trained him to
    do positional negotiation. I want him to be able to think of that, because
    THAT is what makes MY life easier. Employees who can solve problems without
    need to get me involved.

    I want every employee I hire to be a rock star, and if they're merely a
    karaoke singer I'm going to start coaching them at every opportunity. I do
    not want to be a babysitter.

    I like the general idea of arming your new employee with what he/she needs
    to quit quickly and efficiently, but use it as an opportunity to start your
    relationship off on the right foot and start training the new employee to be
    a superstar.
  • Helping somebody negotiate in what will be a tough situation is not encouraging lying or bad behavior. Extrapolating that saying that negotiating your exit package encourages employees to lie about dates they'll be shipping products is a stretch. I get that you don't like my advice on negotiating and it ruffles your sensibilities. That's OK. Not everybody likes me. I suspect not everybody likes you. Let's just agree that we both have different styles. Mine has worked for me, your for you. And obviously you won't want to be working with me any time soon ;-)
  • This post seems like a honeypot -- anyone that tags this post probably has quitting on the brain!
  • -dan
    Sounds manipulative as all hell, there's a fine line between helping your future employee and controlling them.

    I agree if they are walking out the door, they should be diplomatic, professional but most of all honest with themselves. Future or past employers do not need to know everything, but if you have the where with all to express yourself well, and you have something you want to say, you should do it ... it's all in how you handle it. And if they are really offered a great deal on the way out the door, they'd have to be idiots not to at least consider it, especially if it's an established company as opposed to a start up.

    You are trying to guarantee that they leave on your time frame, which I understand is in your best interest, but talking about how the employee will be treated in the future .... a lot of people might reconsider working for someone who is so manipulative, that future doesn't look so bright either.

    Of course your job is to get the best people and do what it takes to get them, but treating people like puppets doesn't make for a good work environment.
  • Yeah, I knew some people would see it this way. That's OK. I understand that point of view. I personally don't see it as manipulative. I think that most employees feel vulnerable when they quit. They're not used to dealing with it. As a hiring CEO I dealt with it all the time. And when they're vulnerable they're often manipulated by their ex employer. So my best line of defense (and there's if I believe they'll best be served by joining my company) is to help them transition quickly. I appreciate your adding your point of view. It's a valid concern.
  • -dan
    I agree with idea, and I agree with giving assistance, and I agree that many people might need some guidance in this area. But, there is a difference between suggesting what they might say, and telling them what that should say.
    I know it sounds like semantics but telling someone to basically stonewall their future-ex-employer to avoid confrontation and possibly a bad outcome for yourself comes off as a very controlling request.

    With that said, I also see the flip side, the future ex-employer could be doing their fair share of trying to control the situation for their own benefits. I'd like to believe rising above will make the difference, but reality isn't so easy.

    Like everything else in the world, it's not just the product you're selling, it's the presentation, even if you are the product.

    good topic
  • Dan, it is semantics. I suspect if you ever heard me give the speech verbally you'd realize that I never overstep the boundaries. I tell them that this is my suggestion and I try to be helpful. But in the end it's your career and you need to do what you feel comfortable with. Please just promise me you won't give in just for the sake of giving in if you feel "guilted" into staying for an unnecessarily long time.
  • Mark isn't treating people like puppets - he simply realizes that there is a large amount of emotion associated with decisions like these - and that makes people act unpredictably. The less of an emotional roller coaster your new employee has to deal with, the more likely the transition will be smooth. Clearly you do not want to manipulate and/or coerce a new employee, that sets the absolute wrong example from the get-go, and I don't think Mark is intimating that at all.

    When we have made hires, I tell our candidates to focus on one thing - do what is best for YOU. If somebody has verbally agreed to join our company, then they clearly think this is what's best for them. When they are asked to stay longer or offered a counter-offer from their current employer, it's almost always because that's what is best for the employer, not the employee. You're not being manipulative to point that out to your prospective employee.

    Of course , when Mark tells a prospective employee "I really need you to start in two weeks" it is true that he's doing what's best for HIM. So, at the end of the day, everybody is doing what's in their best interest, which kinda makes sense! So, if you simply lay out the scenario as Mark describes and add the caveat that the employee should make the best decision for themselves and nobody else, then you are being honest, bold, assertive and entrepreneurial...
  • Thank you. Yes. I am doing what is best for me but I never push employees beyond what I believe is best for them. I think anyone I have hired would attest to that. Push hard, but respect boundaries. It's just that I don't accept, "push hard, but then live with the ex employers manipulation."
  • scottuhrig
    Another argument I've used with departing employees as to why they should leave their former employer ASAP is that, regardless of when they "officially" start with their new employer, their new boss is going to start giving them stuff to do RIGHT AWAY. So the longer you stick around with your former employer, the longer you'll end up doing two jobs simultaneouslyand only getting paid for one.
  • Sure, but I recommend against this for hiring employers. It's best to show your new employee the respect they deserve to wrap things up. I hate giving them stuff early, personally. I usually prefer pressure to end the last thing early and start with you quickly. Maybe it's a bit like dating? Never best when there's an overlap ;-) Thanks for adding this - a worthy reminder.
  • Nice post. I have noticed many cases of employees being talked out of leaving their current post, only to suffer later. While they may receive a short-term gain (in salary or position), they are often tainted as the disloyal one and reduce their long-term potential at the firm. I have seen many cases where people are convinced to stay and are then laid off within the year. A senior HR at a fortune 100 company once advised that employees should never accept a counter-offer to stay for this reason (and yes, he did use counter-offers to buy time to find a replacement).
  • That is a great point. I have a personal philosophy of no counter-offers (taken or given) and I generally share this with folks on my team early in their employment. As a manager, it keeps me on my toes to extend my best folks a tempered version of the Netflix approach described above -- and as an employee it sharpens my resolve to commit to an exit when it's time to move on.
  • Yes, a worthy reminder. Best said after the employee has announced they're quitting.
  • Mark, any advice on dealing with individuals who have extensive notice periods (as is common here in the UK)? We mostly face the challenge of trying to recruit someone who has (within the terms of their contract) got to work out between 4 and 12 weeks.

    We've had some success at getting the individual to negotiate that down, but it is almost never a reduction to 2 weeks.
  • Yes, I should have made that clear. Rats. Having worked in the UK and had operations on Germany and France the issue is different there where long-term contracts are more the norm. It's also different in the US in the entertainment industry where it is not uncommon to have 3-year contracts.

    In the UK I've found that the employee can often get a reduction if they've been a good employee. My line for them was, "look, I know you can hold me to 2 months' notice period. But I've worked very hard for you and have loved my work here. NewCo has offered me a position that is very important to me and I fear that with 2 months' notice they won't hold the offer open for me. They're a startup and really need someone now. I don't want to jeopardize that. If I work really hard in the transition, would you please consider letting me go early?"

    Also, this is the reason in the UK I hated having long notice periods for employees. If I needed to fire them it was a longer amount to pay them. If they really wanted to leave I felt morally I couldn't hold them.

    I almost don't want to touch France for risk of offending people. OK, I will. France, one of these days you're going to have to change your 19th century employment laws and realize the fundamental economic principles - the more friction in creative destruction of jobs the harder it is to create new jobs. Full stop. And when people in France wanted to quit my company they literally would say to me, "You can force me to stay 3 months. But you don't want me to. If I have to stay and I'm pissed off I'll make a very bad employee." Fawk you! I heard that at least 3 times in my time in France.

    Ok, now to the Germans. You, too would be better served by less rigid employment laws. Many of the terminations I had to do in Germany involved me signing legal letters agreeing never to discuss any bad things about that employee if a future employer called. It seems that many German employees feel no problem with taking you to court if you fire them. They're not at all worried about how this looks to future employers and they apparently know they can blackmail you into not revealing it anyways. I'll write some stories about Germany employment one day. I learned too many lessons the hard way, including about betriebsrat and betriebsubergung (spelling?). Yuck.
  • I know you are focused on the US these days, but I'd like to hear more about your experiences in Europe. Throw us Americans in Europe a couple of bones.
  • Ha. Yes, I plan to do a whole series on my experiences in Europe. Maybe later in the year. I have lots of stories / experiences to share.
  • Laurent Boncenne
    Is there a lot of French viewership here anyway ? I'd say 95% (you know it's a lot more than 73,6% here :P ) of us can't speak english decently, How many would even bother to read an english-speaking blog ? (i'm interested in knowing, seriously)

    I've sadly seen too many times lay offs in the same company being handled like garbage.
    From the company I know that has been doing so, each time, I told myself it was the reason why I should take the risk of starting a company myself.
    Once, I saw them fire an employee asking her and her 2 coworkers which one of them was more eligible to being fired ! Now they're firing the best of their project manager for stupid reasons (we need to make more money, and by reducing our employees, we will make more money).

    A lot of time, I hear owners (and CEO's here) talk about how they run their business here, most of the time I feel shocked that they don't realize they're killing themselves by doing so.

    I see people fear of leaving an overly-underpaid job and the reason for it is just that no matter what, it's going to be the same in every other company they apply to.
    France does need a makeover, and I don't think any of your french readers such a me would feel offended.
    That said, I wish there was more blogs like yours or freds' that would cover other countries...
    As long as you don't criticize our love for frog legs (I hope you tried it though), you've got nothing to fear ;-) Not from me anyway.
  • As a French entrepreneur, I can say it is true. And that is not even the whole story. It is incredibly expensive to hire people. If you pay a guy 100 (fully loaded), you still need to pay 70-80 of taxes. It is one of the biggest barrier to success I can imagine.

    It is true that you have a lot of subsidies but they are a incredibly complex and time consuming. I would much rather get no subsidie from anybody and left on my own to build my company but just not get hindered by all those stupid taxes (at least for the 1st year) and paperwork.
  • I lived in France for 2.5 years. I took many holidays there even after I moved to the UK. I'm a big fan of France. Just not their employment laws.

    BTW, as an aside. I was fortunate enough to meet the French finance minister in 2001 after the 35 hour / week law was passed restricting employees to working no more than 35 hours (total lunacy). He said the following, which I'll always remember, "I love the 35 hour work week. I love it a lot. I love the 35 hour work week so much that I work two of them every week!" I knew exactly the predicament he was in. I laughed heartily.
  • Alex Tingle
    This attitude reflects poorly on you. You encourage your new employee to shirk their contractual obligation to work their notice period. Do you then continue to encourage them to treat third parties dishonourably once they have started to work for you??
  • Alex, you're entitled to your point of view. I don't agree with it. All situations are negotiable. If you have a 2 months' notice period and your employer won't be reasonable about your leaving early - so be it. I'm not against that. But if you think that it's not worth trying to get out earlier, we'll just have to agree to disagree. It has nothing at all to do with honor.
  • I may be mis-reading this slightly, but it sounds like you're almost suggesting that UK employers shouldn't bother with long notice periods because they can only really be used against you? That probably tallies with our thinking here.

    It certainly prevents agility in a small company. The kind of "pivot" suggested by the lean start-up brigade (which I agree with on balance) means you might need to flex your workforce fairly quickly. I'm pretty sure that this helps to account for the lack of agile start-ups in the UK market.

    And nice use of the word "Rats". :)
  • Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. In the UK at a startup I'd rather have short notice periods. I prefer it. I never held people to long notice periods so it only worked against me.
  • Thanks for this article. This is really helpful for someone who is planning on quitting their job to become a full-time entrepreneur too!
  • Yes, that's who I'm most used to giving the advice to because as a startup CEO that's who I was most often trying to counsel!
  • mark, i took my inspiration for my daily post from this one

    http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2010/03/transitioning-f...

    it's such an important topic. thanks for bringing it up and starting the discussion
  • Thank you, Fred. I enjoyed your article. Anyone reading these comments should check it out because it extends the article to how the employer should feel. I left comments over there that give my point of view on this topic. My comments are here: http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2010/03/transitioning-f...
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