You Can’t Look for a Job from a Remote Location – It Doesn’t Work

by Mark Suster on May 28, 2010

I’ve had this conversation so many times it’s painful.  A friend calls me up from “you name it” city: Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and says, “I’m thinking about moving to Los Angeles (or SF, NY, etc) and I’d love to start interviewing.  Let me know if you hear of anything interesting.”

I guess when I hear things like this I revert back to my shock jock instincts and say, “Don’t bother.  If you’re committed to living in New York then move there.  Otherwise you’re not serious and you’ll never get the right job so don’t bother.”  Definitely gets shock value.  At least I have their attention.

Why do I give this blunt advice?

Lots of reasons.  Let’s start with the obvious.  Finding the best jobs takes a lot of commitment to taking many different networking meetings with executives, recruiters, entrepreneurs, VC’s, investment bankers, etc.  The best jobs (as you know) are found through personal connections.  The best jobs are the ones that have not already been put on a job board.  The best jobs are the ones that certainly haven’t gone out to an executive recruiter.  The reason these are the “best” jobs for you is that once it goes to an executive recruiter there will be a stack of 100 prospective recruits, 20 amazingly qualified resumes that will have phone or in-person interviews with the recruiter of which the company will meet 5-6.  So unless your last job is a mirror image of your next then good luck with those odds.

So it takes “spade work” to find the right job.  And that ain’t gonna happen from your LinkedIn messages to buddies you haven’t spoken to in 3 years.  It’s not even going to happen from your 3-day exploratory trips every 6-8 weeks.  It takes a sustained effort to get the right job.  Sure, you can land “a” job, just not “the” job.

And there are other reasons.

If you REALLY think you’re committed to Los Angeles – then just move there.  Make a life decision.  None of this wishy-washy hedging your bets.  I’ve heard every excuse – believe me.  ”Well I don’t want to move to LA only to find out that I get a job in San Fran and now I have to move twice.  I mean I’d love to live in LA but what I really want is the perfect job wherever that is.”  Yawn.  OK, so you’re going to sub optimize your job opportunities in both LA and SF?  That’s a great strategy.

Now, I will give a carve out for young execs who really don’t care about geography and are junior enough that the perfect company or job doesn’t always matter.  You can look remotely.  But if you’re more senior fuggetaboutit.  I recently spoke with a 40 year old who was thinking about moving back to LA.  Really charming guy with great experience.  And he had some complicating factors that didn’t make it easy to just move here.  But here is what he told me, “I know that eventually I want to live back in LA.  100%.  That’s where my family is.”

So my feedback was, “Then taking a job in NY right now is really life dumb.  You might find a great job but it might keep you in NYC for the next 7-10 years if it goes really well.  At least 3-5.  Why do that if you KNOW you want to move back to LA.  Choose life.  Carpe diem.”

And there are more practical reasons.  Anybody who has any operational experience and common sense will never want to hire you anyways.  Why?  If you have operational experience then you’ve likely already been burned by somebody else just like yourself wanting to get hired for a remote job.  Here’s a few flavors:

- “I’m going to move to LA but my kids are in school.  As soon as the school year ends they’re going to move out.”  Code for, “I’m going to see how I like the job for 6 months.  I can’t drag my family to LA and then have to drag them back again if I don’t like the job.”  Fair enough.  I can understand the logic.  But I want people that I KNOW are committed to living in the city I’m hiring.  If I’m interviewing and your resume doesn’t say “California” on it somewhere I’ll always ask, “did you grow up in CA?  Do you have family here?  Why would you want to live in LA?”  No plausible motive = no job.  And if I can find an equivalent candidate already living here you can be sure you’re on the bottom of that stack.

- “I’m going to move my family to LA but I need to sell the house first.  I can’t afford to take a loss on it.  So I’ll commute for the first 6-12 months.”  Code for, “OK, I really DO have to sell my house but I also have a great excuse to hedge my bets and see whether I really like the company.  Yeah, I know I could probably rent the house out – but why should I do that?  I don’t mind commuting.”  Long distance, long-term commuting usually = unhappy family life = unhappy employee = less productive employee = unhappy you.

- “My wife is finishing up her masters at University of Chicago.  So I can’t move until she finishes.”  Again, understandable.  If she’s not up for transferring to UCLA – that’s fine.  Call me in 2 years when she’s been graduated.

But wait, there’s more!

Moving when you have a family is a big, fat hassle.  If your husband is going to relo with you to Boston then there are many hassles.  He’ll need to find a job.  You’ll need to find a nanny.  You’ll have to figure out where your kids will need to go to school.  You won’t know the other parents so you’ll have to put in a huge effort.  You won’t know which parts of town to live in and you’ll be in temporary accommodations for a couple of months while you search for your permanent spot.

Your wife doesn’t work?  You sure are going to enjoy those nights you have to stay in the office until 10pm and then come home to your wife who has no friends locally and is bored.  And that business trip to SF for a week to meet customers?  Fun.

How do I “know” all this?  I’ve been burned at least 3 times by people who were moving.  I’ve moved enough to know how distracting the first few months are.  I tell people all the time and, like many of you, they kind of doubt me.  I met a company who was raising money and was going to relo the CEO from the US to the UK and they wanted me to invest.  He and his young family had never lived abroad.  NFW.  I said to them, literally, “Your wife won’t be able to work there easily – no papers.  She’ll enjoy the first 2 months of exploring around and then you’re dead.  She’ll be bored and unhappy.  You’ll be under pressure every night to get home early.  After a year if she hasn’t been able to work she’ll be angling for you to move back to the States.”  And guess what?  Obvious, huh.  It happened exactly this way with this company.

Some things are so predictable.

If you’re deeply committed to living in a city you’ll move there.  If you really care about having the “perfect” job (not everybody does) then being in-market increases your probability 100x.  Choose life.  Choose your location.  Move there.  Get settled in.  Take the time to know the city.  Get your partner bedded down and comfortable with the place without the stress of your new work hours.  And then set out to shake every hand and kiss every baby in town until you’ve networked yourself into the idea role.

Good luck.

UPDATE: Just since the comment is coming up repeatedly in the comments section – I specially carved out “young people” from my argument.  Most young people are infinitely mobile.  Also, I need to carve out mid-level developers.  They tend to be fairly mobile.  Finally, I should carve out international people.  I talk about that in the comments.

So that leaves senior execs: Directors, VP, CEO types.  This is the group I’m mostly talking about.

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  • Aryan B
    Mark - you have really skirted the the key issue -- the practical aspect of managing the move.

    For instance, let's say I'm a senior level professional (Director/VP) and I'm looking to switch geographies (staying in the same industry and function) from NY -> SF. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume I'm single, no kids, and don't own a primary home either. Based on what you are suggesting, I should quit my current job and simply move. Are you nuts ?

    1. How do you explain the gap on the resume for your next job -- the one after the one you are shooting for ? For senior positions, closing a job offer can take several months.
    2. What about your negotiation power as a jobless guy ?
    3. The risk that you may not actually find 'the job' and you may end up settling for something less ?


  • Los Angeles hopeful
    Seriously, this is the best information I have found on the web, or anywhere for that matter (including advice of friends and loved ones). I love Los Angeles and I was trying to find a job via executive recruiters, GOOD LUCK! Recruiters have no interest whatsoever in paying any attention to you if you do are not physically able to meet a prospective employer and like the posting says, those jobs most likely are not THE job or the employer would not have to use a recruiter in the first place. The reality is Los Angeles has a reported unemployment rate of over 12 percent right now and there are hundreds of local qualified people applying for the same job you are so there is no logical reason to believe you will be "the one". That being said, COMMIT!!! I love it!! Save your money, plan the move, do it and then make your new job title "professional job finder"!!!!
  • Celia
    The only difficulty is... the economy isn't that great. Everyone can't just get up and move without a solid promise of getting a job. Bills won't go away unfortunately.
  • Hagit Katzenelson
    Mark,
    My husband and I are moving to the Bay Area this summer. Shall I say 'moving back' as we've lived there before and moved away 9 years ago?
    I understand everything you wrote and I believe you, that is, I believe that that's how employers think.
    However, we have a family and even though we're committed to making this move happen, we cannot survive financially without at least one job. Meaning that we don't have the luxury of moving first and then taking 4-6 months until we start working. Once we have one job, the entire family will move. Period.
    Based on what you wrote, this isn't good enough. Potential employers won't even initiate a phone interview. Perhaps one of us should move and find a sublet/cheap room/sofa for a few months and then have the family move later, once he/she is employed?
    Any other ideas for persuading potential employers that we're serious?
    Thanks!
  • I basically agree with everything in the post as it applies to advice for prospective *employees* looking for jobs.

    It's also masquerading as advice for employers though, and I'm not sure I'm 100% in agreement, perhaps just due to my personal experience hiring people.

    I'm NYC based, and some of the most successful hires I've ever made (as well as ones made by others in organizations I've been in) have been people fresh to NYC. In some cases yes, they move first and start looking. In other cases they've been recruited or brought in from elsewhere. Not all of them junior either, some with 10+ years in the field coming in at a pretty high level.

    Some of these people have been the best "deals" I've ever seen. Why?

    Well for one they are facing people like you who won't hire them. It's a supply/demand equation. They're less in demand, and FOR REASONS UNRELATED TO THEIR SKILLS. (sorry, no bolding in comments)

    That makes them a prospective good deal. And the corollaries are that people outside of NYC have a much different view of compensation than people in the city, they'll take way lower offers. Sure, yes they will figure out reasonably quickly that they can't live in NYC for what they thought they could. Well if they're great then you bring them up to market, what you would have had to have paid anyways, big deal.

    And secondly -- also related to my supply/demand metaphor -- they are more likely to be a bargain because they're not swimming in an over-fished pond. People who are living in NYC and truly exceptional tend to get noticed pretty quick. If someone has been here a few years or more and they're ready to join your company then one of two things must be true -- they're undervalued by a stupid current employer (AND by the other firms they're interviewing with) or they're not actually as good as they look on paper. If they're great they have options. Sure you can get them, maybe you have brighter coloring and plumage, or are up for paying top dollar. Chances are that's not the case.

    On the flip side someone living elsewhere could well be truly exceptional and in a city where there's a bit of a glass ceiling for them. You might be the one to find out. And even when they do get settled in NYC there's a bit of the high school boyfriend mentality at work, where though they're up and running in the city they still have a view of searching for a job in NYC that's a bit warped as they never really did do it "properly" and at least in my experience they're not all that likely to start looking elsewhere right away. To them of course, getting jobs in NYC is really hard, nobody calls you back, etc... at least that's what happened last time they tried.

    Not really a disagreement - everything you say above I have trouble finding fault with. But as an employer, opening your eyes to the RIGHT candidate who's based elsewhere can be a great way to fish in virgin waters and maybe get a serious deal.

    $.02
  • Your post couldn't be more spot-on. I have spent the last month looking for work in New York (from SF) and have had only minor success with positions that I'm not very interested in.

    I'm taking interviews anywhere I can get them, and I've had a few offers... but you're 100% correct when you say that the jobs you really want aren't on a job board anywhere.

    So, my interview skills are polished, and I'm moving to NY on 8/1/10 and I expect to find a job I'm excited about much easier.

    I feel like you wrote this post to me personally because I'm going through this right now. Totally applicable to my life.
  • As an executive recruiter in a niche industry, I get calls from all across the country from professionals from the entry level and executive, looking to relocate to all parts of the country. The first advice I give them is to move there for all the things Mark just mentioned and the pure fact that if it comes down to 2 candidates and all things being equal, the edge and less risk goes to hiring the local candidate. When relocation is not an option, the best time to look for a remote position is when it "seems" like it is the worst time, it is when one is working. Although it does take time, a candidate can leverage close professional/personal networks, great executive recruiters and even selectively apply to interesting positions online. If a prime goal is to be living and working at a certain locale, nothing beats moving there. Sort of like creating a start up, JFDI (Mark, sorry for stealing)!!!!

    - Daniel
  • garydpdx
    Yes, Daniel, but also note that 'moving there' usually does not apply between countries except within the EU (and there are still restrictions on certain combinations, for a while).
  • Agreed. I should have noted that my comment on "moving there" was based on the assumption of movement between domestic US locations.
  • Been meaning to get back to NYC (where I grew up) for awhile now. I may be carved out as young, but I know deep down that the best way to get a job I really like is to actually be there with my feet on the ground. I even have a place to live already. Just need to do it. Thanks for the advice Mark.
  • Roger D
    I found this article interesting, especially given that -
    1) I once got a job in Adelaide, South Australia while living in Perth, Australia;
    2) I once got a job in Jakarta, Indonesia while living in Perth, Australia;
    3) I once got a job in Luanda, Angola (by way of Epsom, UK) while living in Jakarta;
    4) I one got a job in Darwin, Northern Territory (Australia) while living in Queensland's Gold Coast;
    5) I once got a job in Aberdeen, Scotland while living in Darwin;
    6) I once got a job in Perth, Australia while living in Aberdeen;
    7) I got my last job in Houston while living in Perth.

    But remember - it's almost impossible to find a job from a distant city. But - if you have a special skill that is in bog demand, screw the article - you can work wherever you want.
  • jivebunny
    I worked for big companies when I got out of Art College, because I wanted to move to New York from T.O. to live like an Artist. When I landed on wall street in the twin Towers, I had the red carpet rolled out, but I could not handle the big city and the living conditions as compared to Toronto where I had lived since University. Now I often wonder what if I had taken that job .Where would I be , or would I still be, that is the question. I would just like a job where I can live and work and never have to worry about moving or not feeling comfortable where I am living.
  • dianay
    Ty, your post hit home..where I plan to return from abroad. I was hoping to pick your brain as I'm in the middle of key decision points. It'll only take a few minutes at the most. We could DM (@dianay) or email, whatever's more convenient. Hoping to hear back from you.
  • hope
    With my personal experience, I would have to agree with this article. I graduated from a big college in 2004 and landed a job right away not far from the campus. It was a very small town in Indiana and i had hard time adjusting to the small town environment plus the job was not that great either. I tried to find a job in Chicago which was the nearest big city but had little success. The companies I wanted to work for did not want to hire me and on the flip side of the coin, I did not want to work for companies that showed interest in me. Finally, i was able to change jobs but to another small town in Indiana. The pay was good and it was a big organization known worldwide so i took the opportunity. Now i am in the same situation living in a small town trying to move to a big city. To make matters worse, i am even further away from Chicago and on top of that economy stinks too. I have been trying for last a year and a half but again have no success so far. All the interview calls i receive are from small local companies. At this point, i have really started to wonder if it's really worth it to put up with all this.

    I am now thinking of moving to D.C where my brother resides and he has good social and professional connections. I am a single guy with no kids and have enough money saved for one year. I am confident that once i move to D.C i should be able to find a job with my experience and background. Do you think it's a good move? What consequences i will have to face in this situation? If anybody has this kind of experience, please share. Any feedback would be appreciated.
  • garydpdx
    Here are some factors ...

    i) you will be lacking an income.

    ii) you are not laid off but will quit, so won't be receiving unemployment benefits as bridge income.

    iii) relocation will cost, even after you factor out what you can sell (cost out your possessions versus the cost to move them; I donate or give away what I can't sell, as it's cheaper to replace at my destination).

    iv) even if living with your brother for free, that is time-limited. See (i) above.

    If you are within driving distance of Chicago, try to network remotely and go there on weekends if there are such events. Search for 'Business Network Chicago' and sign up there, if any groups or events interest you.
  • Michael_RightSite
    Hi Mark,
    Perhaps one offshoot from this that could be used for a later post is the "bridge job." Although, as an employer, I hesitate to recommend this one, if you are relocating to a new city, then taking on a lower level role at a company with good potential may be the solution.
    I moved to Shanghai from Singapore eight years ago as a senior level exec with no network in my new target city. In this case taking on a bridge job that would help me sustain myself and build a new network was a good solution. Later, after getting experience your new town then you may have a shot at the job you really want. For me it meant that 2.5 years later I was launching my own startup.
    Just a suggestion...
  • garydpdx
    While I have never taken a 'bridge job', I understand the concept. But it's still a job and I wouldn't take one unless it's something that I would enjoy doing and even gain from. (The majority of us on this site are probably fortunate enough to even say those last few words that I wrote. Count your blessings!)

    Myself, I'm looking at taking a full time development job (while that has recently been a part of how I spent my time) with a start-up that's running on R&D grants, if it leads to an executive position (and part time development, at most) in a few months when other funding is in pace. And of course, get it in writing! :)
  • Ouch, I gotta say the title alone put a rock in the pit of my stomach.

    I actually just applied for a job (at Mahalo.com of all places) this last week, although I am currently living in Florida. I may have a slim chance to actually land the job, but I was lucky enough to get the chance to apply and work out a phone interview so I had to take it.

    I know you carved out young people as we are more mobile, but that also goes along with financial stability as well. My financial situation is in the position where I could never afford to move to another city without having the job lined up before hand. I literally could not afford the expenses for more than a month, etc, but I know I am in a unique situation in that regard.

    So where I lack in the family or life obligations section, I still have the financial to worry about. However, this was a great post with a lot of good points worth digesting, Thanks again Mark.
  • As I said, if you're young enough people may just take a chance. Especially if it gets you to move from Florida to LA! ;-)
  • Lets hope so!
  • PushButtonChimp
    I think most of what you're saying is true, however, I'd argue a lot of companies are actually behind the curve on resourcing people no matter where they live. Truly global companies get resources from where ever they are, and amortize the expense. There is also the fact that a lot of talent can work remotely, traveling occasionally to a regional office to have team interactions. Very few business operations actually require people to be in a specific location, yet, a lot of managers do not have the capability of managing remote teams and workers. There is still the old-school myth that says somehow the worker must report to a location, and sit in their chair and do the work. Really forward thinking companies don't have this handicap and instead get remote workers working harder remotely than having them sit in offices and get distracted with all the office nonsense that actually reduces productivity. And speaking of Lost Angeles, of all the towns that are backward on telecommuting, LA is at the top of the list on the need for more telecommuting to reduce traffic congestion. Ask anyone that lives in LA if more telecommuting should be an incentive through tax breaks for businesses that can have their people telecommute at least a couple of days per week.
  • garydpdx
    PBC, I would agree that too many companies even in tech are stuck on 'old school' ideas of needing to be in one location. But the ability of a firm to operated in networked form, with limited interaction, varies and is an overlooked part of corporate culture. Being large enough to have multiple hubs, that can be done and I have worked in such firms (even having management 8 time zones away, who in turn report to senior directors one floor up from me). A smaller firm should have a hub where the team can gather and/or have senior people travel regularly (forced-fit into business trips, if needed) when staff live in places where travel is more difficult. I have seen successful distributed operations, and they do rely on the members having developed 'chemistry' usually by spending some time together, face-to-face.
  • Brian
    What about start-ups looking for VC? Do you recommend they pack up and move where the VC's are?
  • garydpdx
    Some VC's are flexible on location, most aren't. But the 'international' factor comes into play, even between the US and Canada.

    I have had an ex-boss who left and founded a start-up, and was forced to move coast-to-coast in the US by his sole second round VC. It was either that, or fold. He even had to cut people back east (some who left great jobs at the old firm) because the VC forced local staff upon him from one of their recently-failed start-ups.
  • Nari Kannan
    Mark - I am not sure what world you live in. Kids finishing up school while someone takes up a job elsewhere, putting up a house in one market, buying a house in another market, all take time. To ask someone with a family to just move and force the family to move halfway through the school year? - You must either have an extremely passive, obedient family that goes whereever you want at a moment's notice or you think your job is perfect that people would drop whatever they do, move and hope you are that great company that can hire them! What a delusional rant?

    Sorry - You are right 99.9% whatever you say, but this ain't one of those time, Mark. :-)
  • Nari,

    I think you misread my post. I'm not arguing for people to make their kids move mid-year. To the contrary. I know that most people won't (shouldn't). So I think it's hard for employers to take these people seriously. If you REALLY want to live somewhere new then I recommend moving their when convenient (e.g. Summer). If you're not that compelled to move and don't really HAVE TO get a new job then no stress - just look remotely. But I think readers should be aware that this lowers the probability of getting each job for which you apply. Especially if there are equally talented people that are already local.

    Mark
  • Very good post Mark. I went through the same situation when I moved from Bay Area to Chennai (India). I did not know anyone in the company in Chennai I was interviewing. After multiple interviews over phone, It required a face to face interaction with one of the founders before I got the job. It was for a senior position. Luckily, for me the F2F interaction happened in the BayArea, where the founder was visiting.

    I agree for mid-level and developer jobs, being physically present at the job location is not a must. I moved to LA from Chennai as a developer and the interview was done over telephone.
  • Mark, this one rang so true, both from my perspective as a VC as well as someone who has experienced this multiple times in my own career. Initially, the major relocation was my dad who picked up his family with two very young kids....packed some bags and moved to the US. I note he escaped a communist country with all the risk associated, leaving everything behind and basically arriving in the US with a wife, two kids and a couple suitcases. He just "wanted" it and made it happen. A pretty damn good life and job decision from my perspective. My picking up in my teens and just moving to Europe seems so pale in terms of risk involved but I just wanted to do it. After returning from an exchange year, I knew I was going back.....didn't realize it would be so soon but anyway....you know the rest of my story.

    Your point about young, single people being more flexible is very true. It was much easier doing international moves early on in my life. Relocation has become harder as I get older and personal responsibilities and connections increase. Nevertheless I've moved around Germany three times already as part of new positions. It's also simply understood for me that in the future, if I "want" to live somewhere, I'll just pick up and go. Resolving work and "what I'm going to do" would be secondary to the life decision of "where do I want to live". In my case, it probably is again an international move. Yet, I've become used to this and people know this is how I tick. Further, it's planned into my finances to have the flexibility financially to do this. This is one of the benefits of getting older and having the respective financial cushion which I did not have when I was 20.

    Most importantly, just as in your case, I can sense if I am going to be burned listening to execs I am talking to about positions if they are relocating. I had to laugh about some of the scenarios you drew out. I know them all and have heard them all. One of the arguments probably heard more often on this side of the pond is also some form of tax reasons. Yet, whatever, there's always an excuse. If you want it, go get it.

    You nailed it with this one. Great post!
  • Absolutely great article. And right now it's so on-time for me. Currently I am looking for a job from a remote location. However in my situation it's a little bit harder, because I would like to move out to another country. Thanks a lot for great tips - could be useful for me some day.
  • Narayanan Venkataraman
    Being in the "young people" bracket myself, I have my reservations with the perception that younger people are "infinitely mobile". While I agree that younger people are more suited to adapting quickly in new environments, from personal experience, I can say that it isn't easy.

    I have lived in 4 cities in 3 countries in the last 5 years and there has been a significant investment of finances, time and emotional attachment in moving.

    Interestingly, I remotely found a job at an Indian startup last year while working outside India. The job was a "dream" job for me and I got it through an acquaintance who I had met over 3 years back and who worked at the firm.

    As always, I enjoyed reading your post!
  • I've moved 3 times for work now, and I'm potentially looking to do it a 4th time. My wife is from Orange County, and we're not particularly attached to Colorado where we're at now so we're looking to move to Southern California or possibly a little north to Boulder. I will agree that finding a job in a remote market at a executive level is definitely going to be difficult, especially in a larger company. I am currently a Director at a telco, and even getting call backs for those positions is difficult without knowing the hiring VP/SVP. I'm not entirely sure the application tracking systems are checked for those types of positions or if resumes are only reviewed from internal and external recruiters.

    Every time I've moved it's been at an individual contributor level. I think if you're interested in moving to another market you should be prepared to take a step down in your career level. I am considering (for multiple reasons) looking at individual contributor positions at much smaller companies to increase my job satisfaction, but also because if I want to move out of state it's much easier to land those types of positions as well. I'm young (just turned 30) and I can afford to take a step back for a couple of years if it gets me somewhere we'll be happy permanently.
  • Mike
    Interesting comment re: taking a step down in career level.

    What about the reverse & using international as a unique selling point to increase career level?

    I'm a "35+, have a family and are interviewing for senior management".

    My plan is to move from Sydney to London & remain in Retail Banking. Post GFC, Aust banks are the best performing & can therefore offer strategic advice re: sustainable levels of risk.
  • I have to disagree with you on this one Mark. Now, if you don't have a network established in the city you want to move to, you are probably right. But if you spend time working with people remotely and getting to know the right community of people in a city beforehand, make a few visits to meet people face to face, make it known that you want to move there, I think it can be done to the benefit of everyone involved. There are other things you can do to increase your odds of success, such as put your house up on the market beforehand to get the ball rolling, prepare your family for the move by encouraging your spouse to network online with local communities before the move, having a social integration plan for your kids and spouse to get them to meet people. If you really want to live somewhere, you have to be willing to be the social butterfly to make them comfortable in the new place. But at the end of the day, if it is done the right way, it can be a positive for everyone.
  • Sure, of course it can be done. But if you come across any great jobs where the hiring manager has been burned before you might not even get an interview (or offer) and might not even know why you weren't considered. I understand your points, but easier said than done. Some great jobs come from the hours of coffee meetings you put in over a sustained period of time and then the fortuitous break where somebody knows somebody who's *thinking* about hiring somebody like you in a position. That just doesn't happen remotely.
  • I came in the States for a vacation and accidentally found a job. Went back, finished the last 2 months of college while getting the papers and moved here. That was 5 years ago.
  • Nice! Congrats.
  • Couldn't be more true. Someone I know gave up a more lucrative job in D.C. to temp in NYC until she networked hard enough to get a job she probably wouldn't have been able to get had she not moved.
  • Agree with the moving part, all in or all out. But can't agree with having to be in the city to get, find the job.

    If you're old school and using personal offline connections then your thesis holds true. However, those with a strong online presence, can/will find a job anywhere regardless of their current location.

    Networking and finding work is increasingly moving online and dependent upon a social graph and online reputation. This environment is not geographically dependent.

    I'm not looking, however have had multiple opportunities on both coasts.

    As you said, networking is everything, it's just different now.
  • Yeah, you make some great points. People with strong online relationships can network more effectively online. I agree.
  • akulbe
    What I don't understand, at least with tech jobs.... why do you even need to move to $LOCATION?

    All the technology is there for jobs to be done remotely. Why make it harder than it has to be? Why require someone to be on-site?

    That's like the floppy disk. Old, outmoded, obsolete.
  • Works for some jobs, not others. Works for developers, not senior management.
  • garydpdx
    You beat me to it, sort of. I think that it is important for all team members to spend some time together at a hub, unless you are large enough to have multiple hubs (which can be important if you're international and there are travel issues). Senior staff needs to move between hubs regularly, junior less often but visit for a few weeks or months every couple of years. I have dealt with time differences ranging from 8 to 12 hours (think west coast to UK/Ireland, then Israel/Jordan, then India/China). I reported to a manager in the UK (even years directly, odd years dotted line, thanks to constant reorgs) so we chatted 3-5 times a week while they were driving home, I had just arrived to work.
  • The entire org really needs to be set up and *on board* with people being offsite. If only one or two people are remote, and 20 people are onsite, it's more difficult for the org to successfully take advantage of the entire team. It's not impossible, but it's a big culture shift that most can't adapt to very well.
  • akulbe
    I'd add to that... look at 37signals. They're an example of this being done successfully, and profitably.
  • swiss
    btw....Over the past month I recd offers (good offers, great companies) from Chicago, Philly, San Francisco, Minneapolis, and Phoenix -- and am moving to SF in 1 week. I didn't necessarily have a burning abstract desire to move to SF -- and would never have moved there without a job. But it's a city with a huge professional community in my field (and if I'm reading Silicon Alley Insider you have a good idea of the types of fields I'm in) and it'll be a fantastic.
  • Great. Without your name or details about you it's hard to know the circumstances. If you're young, single and a developer I totally get why this works for you. If you're 35+, have a family and are interviewing for senior management - not so much. And I wonder for your employer, because you "didn't necessarily have a burning abstract desire to move to SF," whether this was a wise decision. You might hate it and move home within a year. I'd prefer to hire somebody committed to being there. I'll stop there so you don't attack me again for being verbose.
  • garydpdx
    The previous article by MIT Green B would be a good reference. The eight cities that I have lived in, I at least like and often love. I'm focusing on my 'loved' cities for my next opportunity, even if my current address is not there. But looking at my resume, they'll know that I had been there, once.

    The family aspect is important, I'm lucky to be in a relationship where we are both immersed in our work because we like it (lucky not once, but twice!) so getting together every 4-6 weeks is fine. Oh, did I mention that we live in different cities and time zones?

    But you don't have to be that eccentric. I have seen too many senior people leading more conventional lifestyles successfully relocate to new university and corporate positions. And most have been careful to work out the spouse and family issues beforehand. If it doesn't hit you until an offer appears, it was wrong to apply in the first place! (See above, I have been burned.)
  • MITDGreenb
    I agree with you, but from a reverse logic point of view. Consider that the _worst_ possible outcome is that you take the remote job and then move back after a few months. This scenario is extremely costly on multiple dimensions: it hurts financially; it shows on your resume; it damages your "home" business network while giving you too little time to build your "away" network; it's tough socially; and it's tough on your spouse (and especially kids). As you said, Mark, make a life decision. Decide that you are moving to a given city for the next decade, then go, and _then_ find the job.

    And two notes on your carve outs:
    1) The above is even more true of international assignments. Yes, you have to look remotely for these, but you need to commit absolutely if you get one. I speak as someone who had a 1-year assignment (learned the language, made friends, had a girlfriend, almost stayed, go back frequently) and a 3-month assignment (learned a few words, made acquaintances, did not date the girl I liked, did not stay, have not been back). I still bear the scars of the latter.
    2) The above worst-case scenario is true even for younger or more junior people. Don't underestimate the cost to your psyche of moving around a lot. Every new city is new streets, new friends, new business networks, even new languages. It's pretty darn tiring... and I say that having lived in only 6 States (and the two countries mentioned above). Think twice about moving for a job: unless you're planning to stay in that city for a decade no matter what, the cool opportunity may not be so cool. Again, go. Commit. Enjoy.

  • Funnily enough - in your first paragraph you talk about how damaging and difficult it can be on the family. That's why most people don't move the family until they're fully committed. And that's why most people you hire remotely who have families hedge. And why I prefer not to do it.
  • swiss
    What a bullshit (and verbose) post. People move all the time. Fantastic jobs are posted. Headhunters often handle kick-ass jobs. Moving to a city without a job is ludicrous. Get over it. People move for work. Employers have to pay relo if they want the best people. Stogy people who can't get up to speed quickly at whatever level aren't who you'd want to hire. The unwavering self-assurance self-appointed authority of this posting are hilarious!
  • You're entitled to your point-of-view. It just happens to be wrong.
  • garydpdx
    As someone who has lived in 8 different cities in the US and Canada (if you include my hometown) and seen a lot of relocation by other people to both companies and universities that I was at, I would agree more with Swiss but not in such words! :)

    But seriously, Mark, look at all the senior professors who move around between universities, and corporate executives (I'm not even extreme; one VP that I'm close to, has lived in 8 different countries!). While you and other people have raised valid points on problems that can arise (e.g., spouses, locations, papers), they can and are regularly overcome. And I would agree with an earlier writer: don't go to a city that you will hate to be stuck in, if you lose your gig!

    And yes, I have been burned by insincere job applicants who went through all the trouble of going through the interview (including being flown out at company expense), and then turning down the job offer because they were reluctant to move from (e.g.) upstate New York to Chicago. (In fact, that's a major hazard today because so many mortgages are underwater and make it financially impossible to relocate.)

    Size of the company also matters. In Portland, Oregon, I know of many people cut from Intel and Lattice Semiconductor who are trying to make their way back to Silicon Valley (some originally transferred from there but don't fit in their old firms anymore, else might have tried to transfer back to avoid layoff), while it is smaller firms that are looking. Because of THAT factor, one contact has taken out a PO Box in Milpitas that a friend can check regularly, and is even willing to walk away from their Oregon mortgage in order to make the move (plus spouse also unemployed, so no strings there). Chacun a son gout ...
  • bridanp
    I am one of those that burned a company. We wanted to live "at the beach", so I took a job that would make that happen. Two months into it, my non-working wife had enough and wanted to move back to where her friends were. 12 long months later we were home. So while I still would like to take positions elsewhere, my other half wants to stay put. Moral is I guess the person you are interviewing remotely might not be giving you the whole story. Single young people are probably your best bet if you just need to hire remotely.
  • Yes. 100%. I should have made the "single vs. not" distinction better in the article. thanks for sharing.
  • Chris
    It's not financially feasible for people to move to a new city without a job in hand (especially if they have a spouse or kids). One thing I've found is to simply use the address of a friend or relative on the resume. Companies primarily weed you out before they ever call. If they are interested, the first interview is usually a phone screen. If they still like you, then explain that you're not in the area but that you'd be willing to fly in for an interview. At this point you can tell if the company is really interested or not. It's much more cost effective to fly in for a couple of interviews than moving wholesale with no prospects.
  • Some good hacks - thanks. But if you REALLY want to live and work there nothing beats being on the ground. Maybe another hack would be to move in with a friend (or rotate amongst friends) in your new location for 30-45 days to try and network a bunch on the ground. I find phone-only interviews only go so far. By definition your responding to people's advertised jobs (defensive) rather than trying to create your own opportunities (offensive).
  • Chris
    That works when the economy is decent. Companies are now taking 4 to 16 months to onboard a person. Not many friends or relatives would want you around that long, and your back may get tired of sleeping on a couch as well.
  • Chris
    I meant 4 to 16 weeks...
  • Motoom
    Ouch, 16 months on an old sofa ;-)
  • Fully agreed. Though I do find putting your cv out there with an address in the city you want to work in tends to work.
  • Yeah, somebody mentioned that. I'm sure it does help get interviews but you'd be hard pressed to turn up to very many interviews if you had to fly there every time.
  • jshirley
    As a corollary, and speaking from personal experience and what I've heard, don't move to a city you don't want to for a job.

    When that inevitably turns out to not be a dream job, you're stuck living in a place you don't like. Double resentment factor.

    This comes at a good time, though. We're up and moving to a new place and reading this helped strengthen my conviction we're doing the right thing. I'm not changing jobs (I work from home, best life imaginable).

    Thanks Mark, was a good read.
  • Thanks for sharing. At a certain age in one's life I totally agree. Maybe that's around 30-35+. I could see somebody moving to a city they didn't love when they were young to get the right experience or to earn good money. But in general I'm more with you than with picking the perfect job in the wrong city. I say, "choose where you want to live and then the best job you can in that location."
  • I wanted to work in Silicon Valley After finishing business school in Spain last year, but the economy was in the dump and no one was hiring. So My wife and I moved back home to Colorado, bought a wagon, packed a tent, camping gear and drove across country. I camped around the bay area for 2 months before I found a job.

    It is definitely very hard to move to a new place without any support, but it is possible.

    I found a job with a startup in Los Angeles, because I was willing to make the drive between SF and LA for interviews and meetings. Face to face interaction is more powerful in creating relationships and trust with potential employees.

  • WOW! What a story. Awesome. With whom are you working now?
  • Thanks for the comment Mark. I wanted to live in London but the economy and the weather made it impossible. Right now I am leading the business development efforts for a Japanese software startup doing high performance computing. The company is called Fixstars.
  • Sounds pretty similar to "move to Bay Area / NYC / Boulder first and then we'll consider funding your startup." No remote fishing.
  • 100%. I should have made that link but wasn't thinking about it when I wrote the piece. But spot on. thank you.
  • James Shamenski
    My last startup was acquired and so I moved from Vancouver BC to LA. After 3+ years, the company is folding their position and *today* is literally my last day. I'd like to keep LA my headquarters for my next startup but if a young challenging position arises then one has to consider it no matter where it is. Point being: sudden change is a great catalyst in a flat world. Plus, us young guns don't have the baggage which you've outlined as problematic.
  • Which is why I "carved out" young people from my argument. They're infinitely mobile - I agree. Good luck.
  • Wow, thank you for this post Mark.
    I'm planning to move to London in 2 months, so this really hit home. And what you say heavily confirms my suspicions on how this is going to go.

    Thank you!
  • Tai
    I definitely support relocating and living where you want to live. You can always find a job once you're at your new location, as stated in the posting. I should know as I've moved to several cities and lived in several countries over the last few years. I am always able to get up and move within two weeks, and certainly have the hang of it by now! Life is too short to be unhappy.
  • Where are you moving from? The US? If so, I suggest reaching out online to groups of expats already living there. I don't know the right websites but I'm sure there's tons of great online resources out there to make the transition easier.
  • Actually, no, I'm in Argentina right now, and I've been in contact with expats from here a bit, got some good tips from them.
    Thanks!
  • Kevin
    I can understand where you are coming from, but what about people looking to move internationally? Work authorization is a huge problem that often rules out moving in-market first before landing a job. Should a candidate then just try to take any reasonable job that brings them in-market and then try to land the "dream" job?
  • Yes. If you want to move internationally you need to search remotely. And I agree with the strategy of taking a reasonable job and then changing later. Out of respect to the company that brings you over you ought to stay at least 1 year.
  • Yes, one year is least possible and reasonable period.
    And it's reasonable to search for the opportunities inside this company during this year.
  • Even bigger problem with the international hiring as I see it is significant amount of money and time which is required from employer to get a new guy on board. So the company should be ready to get the guy in 6 months or so...
    And as far as I understand the current job market in US you need to be really outstanding to be waited for 6 months.

    So you need to give something (less salary/worse terms?) back to the employer...

    And then search for better job when you'll be in the Valley (I have not not told that :)
  • Yes, these suggestions seem to be repeated by others!
  • Great post Mark! I can relate to each of these situations as an executive recruiter placing many people from point A to point B domestically and internationally; most cases successful, some not. Anyone seeking to relocate to a new city must have a series of open conversations to consider career opportunities for their spouse/partner, housing prices, schools, friends & family in the area, and recreational activities.

    Once you devise a plan to relocate to a new city, you can still pursue a position remotely while keeping your existing job. If possible, update your resume with a local family member's address (zip) and local phone #. State clearly on your cover letter or email intro why you and your family are pursuing a position within this local marketplace (ex: friends, family, school). You'd be surprised how many people do not consider these factors prior to pursuing, interviewing for, and accepting out of town positions. Doing so, will save everyone a tremendous amount of headache and inconvenience.
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