Some Tips to Improve the Civility on Hacker News

by Mark Suster on June 3, 2010

Paul Graham and the folks over at YCombinator have done much to reenergize early-stage entrepreneurship and encourage the creation of many new and innovative startups including DropBox, Posterous, Loopt, Justin.TV, Scribd and many others.  They also gave us Hacker News, which for me was a welcome addition for discovering tech stories.  HN and Techmeme are the main two tech aggregators that I frequently skim.

Paul explains the rationale behind HackerNews this way:

“We wanted to try to recreate the way reddit felt back in 2006, when the users were mainly hackers. As reddit became more popular, its focus inevitably changed. This was good for most users, but it left some of the earlier ones feeling left out. We wanted to create a new home for people like us”

He also places a huge emphasis on civility in the comments and makes a commitment to “aggressively ban … mean people” as quoted below

“The other thing we’re determined to do is keep the comment threads civil. We’re going to aggressively ban spammers, trolls, and mean people. The policy will evolve over time, but here is the core principle: don’t say anything in a comment thread that you wouldn’t say in person. And in particular, no ad hominems. If you dislike something someone has said, point out why it’s mistaken, instead of making remarks about them personally.

Most forums degrade over time, but we don’t think that’s inevitable. We’re determined to keep this site good, because we use it ourselves.”

Unfortunately HackerNews falls short on this goal.  At first I thought it was just me but I asked around and other people concurred.  One prominent YCombintor graduate CEO said,

“Hacker News [can be] somewhat out of control. I only read HN comments when I want to get upset.”

In my opinion HN can get downright mean.  Here is an example from pw0ncakes.  It starts with “F***ing a**hole” and then “I am sick and f***ing tired of people ripping on my generation for not playing by someone else’s shi**y rules. Are the older people really so damn entitled as to not understand all this?”  This comment received the most votes (61) out of 128 total comments and therefore comes first as you can see here.

Here is an example from Brerrabbit, whoever that is. Starts with “what a f***ing pompous blowhard … F*** you, you are not my Mother or my Father & I resent that implication.”  Or this one from earl that starts with, “The reason Mark is an a**hole is that he’s trying to create / exploit cultural norms to prevent employees acting in their own self interest.”

Aside from the hatred directed at me for starting the debate, I actually think we did a good job of getting the debate going if 128 people left lengthy comments on HN to my post plus 80 more in Paul Dix’s rebuttal and yet more on Andrew Warner’s rebuttal.  Overwhelmingly people were against my views.  That’s fine.  Overwhelmingly people were harsh but avoided obscenities even when they made personal attacks on me.  I’m no prude, it’s just unpleasant to have stuff like this plastered on the internet about you.  See definition: ad hominem.  This is what many of the comments descended into.

I CERTAINLY opened myself up to attack by writing my original blog post about job hoppers with some incendiary language and tone.  I walked some of this back, apologized and tried to tone down the argument here and then followed up with final thoughts here.

But the comments on my own blog were so much more balanced with people taking both sides of the debate.  For anyone who attacked me on my blog but used their actual names I left their comments.  Believe me there were plenty of these and many were hurtful and inflammatory.  I have thick enough skin or I wouldn’t blog.  If somebody was really inflammatory and posted anonymously I deleted the comments.  I think I deleted about 3 out of 322 comments (<1%) and those were for attacking other commenters.

I’ve seen vitriolic responses on HN on several occasion.  I mostly get hammered on HN if I write about a controversial topic like criticizing Apple (in fact, what prompted me to write this post today was that I was asked on Twitter to write a post about Facebook.  I have been avoiding it because I wasn’t up for the inevitable public pummeling this week).  It’s not enough to attack my ideas – it has to be personal.  Ad hominem.

In fact, I was reluctant to write this post because I know it’s likely to lead to the inevitable bashing on HackerNews, which unfortunately also spills over into hate emails that some people from HN send me personally (no prizes for guessing my email address).  From Ji [last name withheld]

“Congratulations … Your post have [sic] made it on front page of Hacker news … lot of good engineers leaves you after they worked for you. I believe it’s more likely that you suck that’s why engineers leave you instead of the other way around …Good luck finding the 10% mediocre employees who are “loyal” and will stay in a company for 10+ years because they don’t have better offers so that they have to stand jerks like you.

one of your 10000+ haters”

Fun.

But I don’t want to be bullied into not furthering the conversation.  As I’ve said very publicly I love blogging because I believe in the freedom to state one’s points of view and the learning that comes from the discourse afterward.  Public discourse is the highest form of democracy.

My suggestions (which will not be popular with many of Ycombinator’s hackers but may meet your goal of civility).  All

1. Make all users post under real names that you verify – This in and of itself would help temper comments.  It’s totally acceptable to me for people to harshly criticize my points-of-view.  No problem.  But calling me a f***ing a**hole or some of the other epithets used goes too far.  If people used real names and if these were crawlable and searchable in Google the transparency alone would help regulate people.  Not everybody but many.  HackerNews doesn’t need to be JuicyCampus.

Better still add photos the was Disqus and Quora do.  It humanizes everybody and drives more civil conversation.  As Paul said in his blog posting, “don’t say anything in a comment thread that you wouldn’t say in person.”  Photos drives this closer to reality.

2. Allow people to flag inappropriate comments - HackerNews only allows you to flag stories that might be inappropriate.  So there’s no way for me to highlight that I’m being harshly attacked by Brerrabbit and no retribution to his standing on HN for crossing the line.

3. Send me alerts when comments come in on a story I’ve written – The interesting thing about HackerNews is that I don’t submit my own stories there – others submit them.  So I often have no idea when I have a story on the site.  I usually find out late in the day or the next day when I see the logs and am having a lot of links come in from HN.  Even then you can’t always find the story!  You can only find it easily if you have the story ID.  It would be easy to implement this.  If you have a blog and you link it to a HackerNews ID and email address then when any stories on your site are submitted you could opt to receive an email update when somebody comments.  This is how Disqus and IntenseDebate work.  I feel that if people are going to say negative things about you at a minimum it is helpful to at least know they are being said so you can defend yourself if you think they’re unfair.

Has anybody else noticed that the discourse on HN can at times descend into a mean spiritedness when people disagree with you?  Is it just me?

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Newer Comments →
  • http://lmframework.com/blog/about David Semeria

    Yo mamma sayz ad homiem iz 4 luzers

  • http://lmframework.com/blog/about David Semeria

    Yo mamma sayz ad homiem iz 4 luzers

  • http://blog.directededge.com/ Scott Wheeler

    2) used to be possible, but was apparently recently removed, and 3) is possible with Backtype.

  • http://blog.directededge.com/ Scott Wheeler

    2) is possible, you have to click link first (edit: noted that — I remembered it being there, but thought it'd been removed) and 3) is possible with Backtype.

  • Joachim Schipper

    You can flag comments if you click 'link' first. This probably requires some amount of karma, but that has its advantages.

    It *is* surprising to see how many people don't use their real names.

    As to getting notified: Google indexes HN really quickly, couldn't you use something like Google Alerts for this?

  • Joachim Schipper

    You can flag comments if you click 'link' first. This probably requires some amount of karma, but that has its advantages.

    It *is* surprising to see how many people don't use their real names.

    As to getting notified: Google indexes HN really quickly, couldn't you use something like Google Alerts for this?

  • http://www.jasonwolfe.co.uk/ Jason Wolfe

    “If you have 'haters' – then you are probably doing something right.”

    Not sure I entirely agree with that sentiment, but I can see how it was derived. I'd probably prefer the idea that “you can't please all of the people all of the time”. Attacking individuals, on a personal level, rather than for the points raised in their argument really just highlights the lack of credibility in their counterpoints.

    It's playground stuff really, and pretty much shows the lack of maturity of the commenter. Having the passion to make a point (which is good), combined with a lack of articulate analysis (which is bad) tends to lead to inflammatory nonsense.

    Good job you have a thick skin Mark. I'd hate to see any juvenile response cause you to withdraw your insights from the majority of the community. The Stephen Fry incident is a good guide to this.

  • http://www.jasonwolfe.co.uk/ Jason Wolfe

    “If you have 'haters' – then you are probably doing something right.”

    Not sure I entirely agree with that sentiment, but I can see how it was derived. I'd probably prefer the idea that “you can't please all of the people all of the time”. Attacking individuals, on a personal level, rather than for the points raised in their argument really just highlights the lack of credibility in their counterpoints.

    It's playground stuff really, and pretty much shows the lack of maturity of the commenter. Having the passion to make a point (which is good), combined with a lack of articulate analysis (which is bad) tends to lead to inflammatory nonsense.

    Good job you have a thick skin Mark. I'd hate to see any juvenile response cause you to withdraw your insights from the majority of the community. The Stephen Fry incident is a good guide to this.

  • http://a.com a a

    1. Real names are unlikely to happen, especially on HN of all places. I like to think it's possible to have a very high level of discourse with anonymity.

    2. People with high enough karma can flag posts, if i recall correctly a human editor will look at those posts then delete if needed.

    3. Alerts/RSS are unlikely to be implemented for some reason (unless you want to write a script yourself ofcouse)

  • http://a.com a a

    1. Real names are unlikely to happen, especially on HN of all places. I like to think it's possible to have a very high level of discourse with anonymity.

    2. People with high enough karma can flag posts, if i recall correctly a human editor will look at those posts then delete if needed.

    3. Alerts/RSS are unlikely to be implemented for some reason (unless you want to write a script yourself ofcouse)

  • http://kenmcarthur.com Ken McArthur

    Hey Mark,

    Intelligent frank discussion of ideas is valuable. The tearing down of people is not.

    For every person we tear down the results are exponential, just as they are when we build them up.

    At one of my events, we asked people who was the person who made the most impact in their life and what the person did to have the impact.

    People mentioned, friends, parents, family members, teachers, strangers on the street and in 100% of the cases the single act that had the most impact was simply an encouraging word or a validation of the fact that each person matters and we make a difference whether we want to or not.

    We would like to think that when we do nothing, nothing happens, but the fact is, when we do nothing or say nothing useful, horrible things happen.

    When a mother or father does nothing with their child, it affects not only the child, but each person the child comes into contact with for the rest of their lives and the cycle goes on and on.

    For an hour and a half less than 100 people in a room traced the results of a single conversation on a couch at a live event. It was a simple conversation like we all have, three guys discussing their hopes and dreams for the future – nothing special.

    I asked one person who I know who had been touched by the conversation and he talked about how the conversation had changed his life. Then he called up another one and they talked about how his impact on them had changed their life.

    Each person told how they had been effected by someone in the chain.

    We had to cut off the conversation after an hour and a half, but by the end the stage was filled with people who had been touched by one simple conversation on a couch.

    Literally millions of dollars had been made. A child had been saved from child abuse. At least five people were ALIVE when they would have been dead because of that conversation. A teenage boy got the first hug of his life and millions of people at risk of suicide had received a simple message of hope.

    But …

    The conversation wasn't about saving lives or making millions. It was a simple exploration of what three guys wanted to do as the next steps to working together to build their businesses.

    Those conversations happen every day and the reason we THINK they don't matter is because we don't MEASURE the results of those simple acts.

    Everyone can say a kind word when it's needed the most.

    In most cases, the person who had the GREATEST impact in the person's life didn't even know that they had that impact. No one ever told them.

    When I was in boot camp in the Army every other word started with an “F” and was a derivative of a word implying sexual intercourse.

    After a few days, those words meant nothing.

    They added no emphasis, no emotion, no feeling.

    They were just useless sounds.

    So I stopped.

    And no one seemed to notice. Just like no one noticed the long streams of “F” words.

    Until one day when I stubbed my toe and said “darn.”

    I swear … every head in the barracks turned and looked at me.

    If you want to have an impact …

    - Solve a real problem
    - Give inputs and opinions which have real, considered positive impact
    - Measure the results

    You'll find your impact is immeasurable.

    Mark, a personal thanks for the reminder.

    All the best,

    Ken

  • http://kenmcarthur.com Ken McArthur

    Hey Mark,

    Intelligent frank discussion of ideas is valuable. The tearing down of people is not.

    For every person we tear down the results are exponential, just as they are when we build them up.

    At one of my events, we asked people who was the person who made the most impact in their life and what the person did to have the impact.

    People mentioned, friends, parents, family members, teachers, strangers on the street and in 100% of the cases the single act that had the most impact was simply an encouraging word or a validation of the fact that each person matters and we make a difference whether we want to or not.

    We would like to think that when we do nothing, nothing happens, but the fact is, when we do nothing or say nothing useful, horrible things happen.

    When a mother or father does nothing with their child, it affects not only the child, but each person the child comes into contact with for the rest of their lives and the cycle goes on and on.

    For an hour and a half less than 100 people in a room traced the results of a single conversation on a couch at a live event. It was a simple conversation like we all have, three guys discussing their hopes and dreams for the future – nothing special.

    I asked one person who I know who had been touched by the conversation and he talked about how the conversation had changed his life. Then he called up another one and they talked about how his impact on them had changed their life.

    Each person told how they had been effected by someone in the chain.

    We had to cut off the conversation after an hour and a half, but by the end the stage was filled with people who had been touched by one simple conversation on a couch.

    Literally millions of dollars had been made. A child had been saved from child abuse. At least five people were ALIVE when they would have been dead because of that conversation. A teenage boy got the first hug of his life and millions of people at risk of suicide had received a simple message of hope.

    But …

    The conversation wasn't about saving lives or making millions. It was a simple exploration of what three guys wanted to do as the next steps to working together to build their businesses.

    Those conversations happen every day and the reason we THINK they don't matter is because we don't MEASURE the results of those simple acts.

    Everyone can say a kind word when it's needed the most.

    In most cases, the person who had the GREATEST impact in the person's life didn't even know that they had that impact. No one ever told them.

    When I was in boot camp in the Army every other word started with an “F” and was a derivative of a word implying sexual intercourse.

    After a few days, those words meant nothing.

    They added no emphasis, no emotion, no feeling.

    They were just useless sounds.

    So I stopped.

    And no one seemed to notice. Just like no one noticed the long streams of “F” words.

    Until one day when I stubbed my toe and said “darn.”

    I swear … every head in the barracks turned and looked at me.

    If you want to have an impact …

    - Solve a real problem
    - Give inputs and opinions which have real, considered positive impact
    - Measure the results

    You'll find your impact is immeasurable.

    Mark, a personal thanks for the reminder.

    All the best,

    Ken

  • http://apreche.pip.verisignlabs.com/ Apreche

    Do what I do. Never read comments, ever. Ignore any stories that are obviously part of a flamewar. I pretty much just read articles that have awesome technical information, and ignore everything else.

    I also do not subscribe to any newsletters, newsgroups, or anything like that. All I do is make blog comments like this once in awhile. Even when I do, I never come back to see replies or anything.

    I see no flames. I'm just chillin'.

  • http://apreche.pip.verisignlabs.com/ Apreche

    Do what I do. Never read comments, ever. Ignore any stories that are obviously part of a flamewar. I pretty much just read articles that have awesome technical information, and ignore everything else.

    I also do not subscribe to any newsletters, newsgroups, or anything like that. All I do is make blog comments like this once in awhile. Even when I do, I never come back to see replies or anything.

    I see no flames. I'm just chillin'.

  • http://giffconstable.com giffc

    Slashdot comments have always been like this too. I don't think that there is a real fix – the hackers who enjoy the invective and trolling will always work around – it would just be part of the game. You already have the tools you need mark – a thick skin and the flexibility to hear opposing opinions.

  • http://giffconstable.com giffc

    Slashdot comments have always been like this too. I don't think that there is a real fix – the hackers who enjoy the invective and trolling will always work around – it would just be part of the game. You already have the tools you need mark – a thick skin and the flexibility to hear opposing opinions.

  • http://twitter.com/wfjackson3 Willis F Jackson III

    The key suggestion here is to add real names and pictures. The first time I left a comment tied to my twitter account and saw my full name and picture appear in Disqus, and then figured out I had an individual page showing all of my past comments, I had a reflective moment. I try not to say anything out there anyways, but it gives a person pause to make sure they are adding to the conversation and not making an ass out of themselves.

  • http://twitter.com/wfjackson3 Willis F Jackson III

    The key suggestion here is to add real names and pictures. The first time I left a comment tied to my twitter account and saw my full name and picture appear in Disqus, and then figured out I had an individual page showing all of my past comments, I had a reflective moment. I try not to say anything out there anyways, but it gives a person pause to make sure they are adding to the conversation and not making an ass out of themselves.

  • http://blog.botfu.com Kevin Marshall

    I agree, but I do think there are some things that could be done via game mechanics to help improve the situation…my theory is that those most likely to throw meaningless insults into comments are also those most likely to be driven by games…and so why not tie the concept of winning/losing to comments and comment reputation? I think disqus and a few others are working down this path (with things like karma points and such), but nobody's quite hit on the solution just yet…but I think we will slowly get there…

  • http://blog.botfu.com Kevin Marshall

    I agree, but I do think there are some things that could be done via game mechanics to help improve the situation…my theory is that those most likely to throw meaningless insults into comments are also those most likely to be driven by games…and so why not tie the concept of winning/losing to comments and comment reputation? I think disqus and a few others are working down this path (with things like karma points and such), but nobody's quite hit on the solution just yet…but I think we will slowly get there…

  • http://giffconstable.com giffc

    I like the infinite loop logic of creating a game to game the game of gaming the game :)

  • http://giffconstable.com giffc

    I like the infinite loop logic of creating a game to game the game of gaming the game :)

  • http://blog.botfu.com Kevin Marshall

    Just wait until I tell you all about the cheat codes then… :-D

  • http://blog.botfu.com Kevin Marshall

    Just wait until I tell you all about the cheat codes then… :-D

  • http://twitter.com/generalist Eric Nehrlich

    I don't usually read HN so reading the comment thread that you linked to raises my blood pressure. I think what's interesting is that it looks like many of the commenters (unfairly) perceived your job hopping post as an ad hominem attack on who they were and responded in kind.

    I also find it fascinating that people's first response on the Internet is to blame others – your attitude towards job hoppers is because you're old and bitter, and I can't stay at my job because my company isn't nurturing me or because of the economy or because they want me to do something that I don't want to do – it's always somebody else's fault. After having worked at several companies, I've learned that if I'm getting a reaction I don't like, it's time to look at myself and figure out what behavior of mine I can change to change those reactions – I can never control what others do or think, but I can control my own behavior. So as I commented on your original post, I thought it was a good spur for self-reflection for me to think about my patterns and my tendency to get frustrated and leave when things weren't going well, rather than sticking it out and trying to make it better. I wonder what our discourse would look like if we all tried to look within ourselves first before blaming others.

  • http://twitter.com/generalist Eric Nehrlich

    I don't usually read HN so reading the comment thread that you linked to raises my blood pressure. I think what's interesting is that it looks like many of the commenters (unfairly) perceived your job hopping post as an ad hominem attack on who they were and responded in kind.

    I also find it fascinating that people's first response on the Internet is to blame others – your attitude towards job hoppers is because you're old and bitter, and I can't stay at my job because my company isn't nurturing me or because of the economy or because they want me to do something that I don't want to do – it's always somebody else's fault. After having worked at several companies, I've learned that if I'm getting a reaction I don't like, it's time to look at myself and figure out what behavior of mine I can change to change those reactions – I can never control what others do or think, but I can control my own behavior. So as I commented on your original post, I thought it was a good spur for self-reflection for me to think about my patterns and my tendency to get frustrated and leave when things weren't going well, rather than sticking it out and trying to make it better. I wonder what our discourse would look like if we all tried to look within ourselves first before blaming others.

  • http://www.investingwithoptions.com/ steveplace

    HN comments don't seem that way to me– most of the time. Comments act as a mirror and an amplifier to the tone of the related post. So if someone posts the benefits of Erlang, it's going to be a good discussion. But any sort of techcrunch linkbait? Opinions are going to fly.

    As for your #3 request, you have a “reactions” section at the bottom of your blog that shows HN comments.

  • http://www.investingwithoptions.com/ steveplace

    HN comments don't seem that way to me– most of the time. Comments act as a mirror and an amplifier to the tone of the related post. So if someone posts the benefits of Erlang, it's going to be a good discussion. But any sort of techcrunch linkbait? Opinions are going to fly.

    As for your #3 request, you have a “reactions” section at the bottom of your blog that shows HN comments.

  • http://www.LeadPro247.com Paddu Govindaraj

    Mark,

    Ignoring the anonymous flamers (aka losers) is the only viable option. They will always find something to crib about or someone to pounce on. I don't get surprised when you say people are overwhelmingly against your views. Nowadays people are overwhelmingly against anything and everything good. That's why there are so many crooks and cheaters taking advantage of them. Did you hear about someone suing Google because their walking directions did not say 'walk only on sidewalks'? Personally, I don't have the energy to blog, discuss and followup on topics such as these; you are doing a yeoman service for the startup / entrepreneurial community. Again, most people may not agree; but it is okay.

  • http://www.LeadPro247.com Paddu Govindaraj

    Mark,

    Ignoring the anonymous flamers (aka losers) is the only viable option. They will always find something to crib about or someone to pounce on. I don't get surprised when you say people are overwhelmingly against your views. Nowadays people are overwhelmingly against anything and everything good. That's why there are so many crooks and cheaters taking advantage of them. Did you hear about someone suing Google because their walking directions did not say 'walk only on sidewalks'? Personally, I don't have the energy to blog, discuss and followup on topics such as these; you are doing a yeoman service for the startup / entrepreneurial community. Again, most people may not agree; but it is okay.

  • http://www.adrianscott.org/ Adrian Scott

    ack… real names required for something with hacker in the name?

    i think that would be more appropriate for venture capitalist / startup news than hacker news, imho.

    long live hacker names on hackr nws… ;)

    i don't think the discourse is that bad. i did find some of your post about job hoppers a bit trollish so you may have set yourself up for it a bit.

  • http://www.adrianscott.org/ Adrian Scott

    ack… real names required for something with hacker in the name?

    i think that would be more appropriate for venture capitalist / startup news than hacker news, imho.

    long live hacker names on hackr nws… ;)

    i don't think the discourse is that bad. i did find some of your post about job hoppers a bit trollish so you may have set yourself up for it a bit.

  • durbin

    Mark, lets try to keep HN under wraps a bit, we don't want a bunch of VC types on there :) Good ideas for keeping it the way it is, a friend of mine suggested putting up a small programming test as a wall for new users.

  • durbin

    Mark, lets try to keep HN under wraps a bit, we don't want a bunch of VC types on there :) Good ideas for keeping it the way it is, a friend of mine suggested putting up a small programming test as a wall for new users.

  • http://www.codeanthem.com/ Amber

    I have also seen that commenters on HN are much more harsh than ones on my own blog, but I find this to be the case with all social media sites (Digg, Reddit, etc). I know you said HN was started to try to avoid this, but I'm not sure it's avoidable. I can't be sure why, but it's almost like people on your own site will feel the need to be more respectful and avoid personally insulting language (not always, but usually). On SM sites, it's anything goes and also has an “us against them” kind of attitude.

    The reason why I think it may not be avoidable is that it's sort of human nature. Pundits might hate on politicians on TV, even knowing that the politician will see it, but almost none will say anything like that to their face. They may not even be trying to be two-faced about it, it's just human nature.

  • http://www.codeanthem.com/ Amber

    I have also seen that commenters on HN are much more harsh than ones on my own blog, but I find this to be the case with all social media sites (Digg, Reddit, etc). I know you said HN was started to try to avoid this, but I'm not sure it's avoidable. I can't be sure why, but it's almost like people on your own site will feel the need to be more respectful and avoid personally insulting language (not always, but usually). On SM sites, it's anything goes and also has an “us against them” kind of attitude.

    The reason why I think it may not be avoidable is that it's sort of human nature. Pundits might hate on politicians on TV, even knowing that the politician will see it, but almost none will say anything like that to their face. They may not even be trying to be two-faced about it, it's just human nature.

  • Rajat Suri

    Sorry to hear about the abuse you're getting. I'm not very experienced with the debates at HN, but in my experience strong opinions generally trigger strong reactions. If the people who have the reactions aren't emotionally stable enough to come up with a cogent rebuttal, they often resort to emotional attacks a la the Vivek Wadhwa fiasco. It's not really HN, it's just life.

    I really think it's an individual thing, not a technical issue that can be fixed via Disqus. I've had people react very strongly to my opinions in my face in person, not just online. The community shouldn't accept it though and clamp down on those with ad hominem tendencies.

    BTW I think a lot more of your job hopper post nowadays as we hire a few more peeps. Although I think I disagreed with your points in theory, in practice it does matter in my thought process after all. I like to see that people have been loyal to SOMETHING in their past, and they have the ability to stick with things in the good times and bad.

  • http://www.linkedin.com/in/rajatsuri rajatsuri

    Sorry to hear about the abuse you're getting. I'm not very experienced with the debates at HN, but in my experience strong opinions generally trigger strong reactions. If the people who have the reactions aren't emotionally stable enough to come up with a cogent rebuttal, they often resort to emotional attacks a la the Vivek Wadhwa fiasco. It's not really HN, it's just life.

    I really think it's an individual thing, not a technical issue that can be fixed via Disqus. I've had people react very strongly to my opinions in my face in person, not just online. The community shouldn't accept it though and clamp down on those with ad hominem tendencies.

    BTW I think a lot more of your job hopper post nowadays as we hire a few more peeps. Although I think I disagreed with your points in theory, in practice it does matter in my thought process after all. I like to see that people have been loyal to SOMETHING in their past, and they have the ability to stick with things in the good times and bad.

  • http://erica.biz ericabiz

    “But the comments on my own blog were so much more balanced with people taking both sides of the debate.”

    This surprises you?

    I write a lot of incendiary stuff online, mostly about outsourcing and making a lot of money on the Internet (two hot topics that people love to flame about.)

    The comments on my own blog are always overwhelmingly positive, too. Why? People read you because they like you. They're not typically going to flame you on your own blog. (I track the referrers of people flaming me on my own blog; it's always someone who has just come in.)

    Here are a couple comments made about me yesterday on another blog:

    “Erica Douglass, you certainly have the [other blog's name] attitude down pat. Arrogance oozing from every word; contempt for anyone that does something different than you.”

    “If your website bio says. ‘When I was 26 I sold my business for $1.1M’ then you’re a loser.”

    And that was just yesterday. These roll in every day of the week.

    Would people who subscribed to me say that? Of course not; they're subscribed, so they've made an implicit endorsement of me. They may call me out on the table when I say something they disagree with, but they're not going to head into “loser”, “asshole” territory. They'll just unsubscribe instead.

    Learn to grow a thick skin and ignore the BS. This comes with the territory of being a popular blogger. I do a forgiveness exercise on these folks to make sure they don't bug me long-term. It is all about letting the hate go.

    -Erica

  • http://erica.biz ericabiz

    “But the comments on my own blog were so much more balanced with people taking both sides of the debate.”

    This surprises you?

    I write a lot of incendiary stuff online, mostly about outsourcing and making a lot of money on the Internet (two hot topics that people love to flame about.)

    The comments on my own blog are always overwhelmingly positive, too. Why? People read you because they like you. They're not typically going to flame you on your own blog. (I track the referrers of people flaming me on my own blog; it's always someone who has just come in.)

    Here are a couple comments made about me yesterday on another blog:

    “Erica Douglass, you certainly have the [other blog's name] attitude down pat. Arrogance oozing from every word; contempt for anyone that does something different than you.”

    “If your website bio says. ‘When I was 26 I sold my business for $1.1M’ then you’re a loser.”

    And that was just yesterday. These roll in every day of the week.

    Would people who subscribed to me say that? Of course not; they're subscribed, so they've made an implicit endorsement of me. They may call me out on the table when I say something they disagree with, but they're not going to head into “loser”, “asshole” territory. They'll just unsubscribe instead.

    Learn to grow a thick skin and ignore the BS. This comes with the territory of being a popular blogger. I do a forgiveness exercise on these folks to make sure they don't bug me long-term. It is all about letting the hate go.

    -Erica

  • inboulder

    I'm not sure what the problem is. Your controversial article generated many hits to your blog and a civil discussion, some people on HN disagreed with the article and derided your character, big deal.

    1) is laughable for HN
    2) already exists
    3) does nothing to address manners

    I think there's some confusion about audiences, HN users are mainly folks who work for tech companies, your blog users are more VC cheer-leading oriented, your job hop article comes off as pro VC and anti-tech worker, hence the different tones of comments here vs HN.

  • inboulder

    I'm not sure what the problem is. Your controversial article generated many hits to your blog and a civil discussion, some people on HN disagreed with the article and derided your character, big deal.

    1) is laughable for HN
    2) already exists
    3) does nothing to address manners

  • http://www.leftbraintorightbrain.com/ Scott Carleton

    I really believe in people taking accountability for their comments. I used to post with an alias on energy boards that tend to get a bit heated. I have since taken up a Disqus account which I really like and believe that using my own name and picture allows me to control the discussion medium at the very least. Plus, I think it's a good thing to be google searchable and to have some control over it. Stops people from digging around and getting the wrong impression about you.

  • http://www.leftbraintorightbrain.com/ Scott Carleton

    I really believe in people taking accountability for their comments. I used to post with an alias on energy boards that tend to get a bit heated. I have since taken up a Disqus account which I really like and believe that using my own name and picture allows me to control the discussion medium at the very least. Plus, I think it's a good thing to be google searchable and to have some control over it. Stops people from digging around and getting the wrong impression about you.

  • http://www.twitter.com/biggiesu Mike Su

    I agree removing anonymity will help reduce the nastiness, but ultimately it comes down to active moderation. Internet comments follow the laws of entropy, and if not tended to, will dissolve into utter chaos. The reason discorse on your blog and blogs like Fred Wilson's are relatively civil is because:

    (a) you guys actively respond and
    (b) you remove the anonymous, nasty comment trolls

    Internet commentors, like children, will behave as badly as they are allowed to. If Hacker News does not actively police, then the problem will never really be solved, in my opinion. While I agree to your second suggestion of crowd-sourced policing, it still will have limited affect, in my opinion, as the overwhelming majority of users will cheer the bad behavior rather than police it.

  • http://www.twitter.com/biggiesu Mike Su

    I agree removing anonymity will help reduce the nastiness, but ultimately it comes down to active moderation. Internet comments follow the laws of entropy, and if not tended to, will dissolve into utter chaos. The reason discorse on your blog and blogs like Fred Wilson's are relatively civil is because:

    (a) you guys actively respond and
    (b) you remove the anonymous, nasty comment trolls

    Internet commentors, like children, will behave as badly as they are allowed to. If Hacker News does not actively police, then the problem will never really be solved, in my opinion. While I agree to your second suggestion of crowd-sourced policing, it still will have limited affect, in my opinion, as the overwhelming majority of users will cheer the bad behavior rather than police it.

  • http://josephsunga.com joesunga

    I definitely agree w/ #1 of adding photos and real names. It's funny this post came up because I just wrote a post about commenting on blogs and my #1 Tip: Don’t be anonymous. People are all talk if they disconnect themselves from the comment being said. Step up and grow some balls, don't hide behide a veil of anonymity.

    http://startupdojo.org/post/656902770/5-ways-to…

  • http://startupdojo.org joesunga

    I definitely agree w/ #1 of adding photos and real names. It's funny this post came up because I just wrote a post about commenting on blogs and my #1 Tip: Don’t be anonymous. People are all talk if they disconnect themselves from the comment being said. Step up and grow some balls, don't hide behide a veil of anonymity.

    http://startupdojo.org/post/656902770/5-ways-to…

  • http://jessefornear.com jfornear

    As a longtime HNer, I would say that the quality of discourse has indeed declined over time, but it's still better than elsewhere. Some of your suggestions aren't really needed because you either overstate the problem or something similar is already in effect:

    1. Anonymity isn't inherently a bad thing. I can think of a number of occasions where someone posted anonymously for a legitimate reason. Maybe I just have really, really thick skin, but I don't usually mind when I get thrashed by someone anonymously. Plus, there are always those who will (and do) post mean-spirited comments under their real names anyway.

    2. The moderators already do a pretty good job policing trolls, spammers, etc. You should turn on the 'showdead' feature to see the moderators in action. For example, you can see that all of pw0ncakes' comments are [dead] by default now. Individual comments only need 4 net down votes to get buried, which is better than a flagging mechanism, I think.

    3. I'm not sure how this would even work. Disqus (YC '07) already pulls HN comments via the BackType API. HN is openly affiliated with YC, so PG will take any opportunity to guide people toward YC companies' products rather than provide a similar service himself.

    You're just going to have to accept the fact that you're going to provoke a mean-spirited reaction from time to time when you argue controversial ideas on the internet. :)

  • http://jessefornear.com jfornear

    As a longtime HNer, I would say that the quality of discourse has indeed declined over time, but it's still better than elsewhere. Some of your suggestions aren't really needed because you either overstate the problem or something similar is already in effect.

    1. Anonymity isn't inherently a bad thing. I can think of a number of occasions where someone posted anonymously for a legitimate reason. Maybe I just have really, really thick skin, but I don't usually mind when I get thrashed by someone anonymously. Plus, there are always those who will (and do) post mean-spirited comments under their real names anyway.

    2. The moderators already do a pretty good job policing trolls, spammers, etc. Individual comments only need 4 net down votes to get buried, which is better than a flagging mechanism, I think. You should turn on the 'showdead' feature to see these two forces in action. For example, you can see that all of pw0ncakes' comments are [dead] by default ever since he posted that comment on your post.

    3. I'm not sure how this would even work. Disqus already pulls HN comments via the BackType API. HN is openly affiliated with YC, so PG will take any opportunity to guide people toward YC companies' products rather than provide a similar service himself.

    You're just going to have to accept the fact that you're going to provoke a mean-spirited reaction from time to time when you argue controversial ideas on the internet. :)

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