The Power of “In Person” – Why Distributed Teams are Less Effective

by Mark Suster on July 5, 2010

In the era of Skype, web conferencing tools and collaboration software conventional wisdom says that distributed startup teams can be just as effective as those that are in person.

Conventional wisdom is wrong.  Or more precisely the people espousing the benefits of distributed startups teams are often distributed and therefore self rationalizing it.  Been there.

The reality is that a certain magic that happens when you’re in person is critical in a startup.  You attend five customer meetings together over a two-week period and after each meeting you replay the results in the office about what it meant.  The CEO weighs in with his perspectives, the head of product management disputes his conclusions and the marketing VP has a different take.

We spend hours of seemingly “wasted” time just in these informal chats simply shooting the shit.  With all the recent obsessions about “pivots” most people don’t realize that the more powerful pivots are the unnoticeable ones we make every day through these exchanges.  The conversations bleed into the sales messages the next time, they wend their way into software designs and form the plan of attach against competition.

These incremental adjustments are made between people who see each other daily and are so below the surface of even our consciousness that distributed teams can’t see what they’re missing.  In a world where 90% of communications is non-verbal imagine what is lost on conference calls.

And from all the office chatter come norms and beliefs.  The sales rep that brings back news from the front line that is shared with the office adds to our collective knowledge about customer needs, product design flaws or partnership opportunities.  And that rep doesn’t just send an email to his boss – he has coffee with the head of customer service.  He downs cold ones with the head of biz dev.  He gossips with the office manager who tells 3 software developers.

And it doesn’t stop there.  The best companies are built on common beliefs and culture – a common sense of purpose.  Those cultural normals are established through human connections: the night we all stayed late to get that release out the door, the day we celebrated our funding round or the day we landed our first big account.  The culture is forged through office parties, poker, paintball or film nights.  And slowly, over the years, those crazy stories about Danny passed out in the company bathroom after the Summer party get replaced by weddings, births and family picnics.  We become more than dispassionate colleagues – we’ve been in the trenches together and survived.

I’ve seen it go full cycle.  There is a core that exists in human connectedness that no amount of technology can replace.  Just watch companies that grow rapidly in even a single physical address and start to span multiple floors and you’ll know what I mean. The culture starts to change and companies need to work harder to keep up the physical connections – even within the same building.

I’m not arguing that 100% of a team need to be in a single location although that would be ideal.  Here are my personal biases:

1. CEO, VP Products and CTO must all be in the physical location. If they’re not I won’t fund.  Because the formation of a business is so dependent on “product / market fit” these are the critical roles for me.  Also, founders who pitch me when they themselves live in separate locations don’t get very far with me.  I’ve heard the line a million times, “one of us will move after we’re funded.”  I know, I know.  But if your business is super important to you then have the hard discussion up front and one of you should consider moving.

2. I don’t like distributed development teams in early stage businesses. This is a topic that comes up often in Los Angeles because many CEOs are tempted to hire their tech teams in the Bay Area.  I think this splits up critical resources and builds separate cultures in two locations.  I often advise these CEOs to make the tough choices early in the company’s history – either move up North or build your tech team in LA.  There are pluses and minus for both cases.  Yes, I know some Herculean CEO’s that commute every week and make everything alright.  But I still believe that they would be better off whole.

3. I prefer the first sales hires to be in the home office. I understand the need to have geographic coverage.  If you’re a West Coast company you need people on the East Coast.  If you’re a UK company you’ll eventually need some local sales talent in Germany and France.  When your first few sales reps are in your home office there is a clear tradeoff that you’ll spend more on travel and your sales team will feel like ping-pong balls but I feel this is a better trade off than a sales team that is out of the loop.  As your company develops you’ll obviously need to hire sales talent in multiple locations.

4. I’m fine with key developers being in a remote location. If you have the core of your team together but a few key developers live in Oregon, Ohio or New Mexico and don’t want to move to a big, expensive city I’m fine with that but make it a small minority.  In a perfect world they’d be in your home office but this is one area where I feel remote tools can help bridge gaps.  As long as you have a great product management function and the remote people have established norms of being good independent workers these situations usually work well.  Make sure that you spend the money to have them work in the home office for a few days each quarter.  Even if they feel it gives them some less productive time it will pay huge dividends down the line in human connectedness.

5. What about call centers? It’s true that call centers often employ tons of employees who are often lower cost per person than your development team or other staff members and therefore it’s often effective to have call centers in lower-cost cities away from your home office.  But in the early phases of your company you’re not likely to scale up the call center so until that time comes I’d have them at the home office.

6. What about outsourcing? For me outsourcing in a pure startup is the kiss of death.  I’m against it in almost all situations.  I believe that startup tech companies need to develop a technical DNA and this doesn’t happen when you outsource.  Outsourcing early often happens when you have non-technical founders who don’t know how to get code out the door.  For me one of the tell tale signs of a real entrepreneur is that they know how to network well enough to find technical talent to join them.  If they can’t, I doubt it will become a big, important technical company.

7. What about offshoring? First, many people confuse outsourcing and offshoring.  Outsourcing is when somebody else builds your software.  Offshoring is when you have your own team build it but your own team is located a separate location where wages are significantly cheaper.  This is sometimes done in a cheaper part of your country but is more often done in a developing country rich with technical talent and smart people such as the Ukraine, China, India, Bulgaria and the like.

I prefer that early stage companies not offshore development.  In the world of agile development I believe that rapid output of code and the ability to constantly make changes trumps having a few extra bodies at a cheaper rate.  I’ve lived this directly through both outsourcing and later offshoring parts of our development at my first company and was proven wrong by our chief architect, Ryan Lissack, who argued that at our stage of development we were better off with a smaller, locally-based team.   When you’ve got offshore people you end up needing longer specs and less changes so it begins to feel like waterfall development.

Will I make exceptions?  Yeah, in some cases.  But where I make exceptions I expect the VP Engineering and the Chief Architect to all be located in the home office.  I expect the VP Engineering to be from the same culture and speak the same native tongue as the offshore location.

I have another exception.  There are times where you’re building a non-core piece of software in which you don’t have the in-house skills and likely don’t need them in the short-to-mid-term.  My example is that at my second company we build an exclusively SaaS platform except that we needed to build hooks into some Microsoft Office applications.  We put the spec out on RFP on a contracting site and received bids from skilled people all over the world.  So I’m not opposed to using oDesk in the early stages of your company (to the contrary – I’m a big fan of oDesk).  Just don’t use them early in your startup phase for your core development or for the majority of your coding.

In summary: I know that it’s trendy to espouse the virtues of distributed teams.  I also know that many of you reading this will work for such an organization and may be remote yourself.  I’m not saying your companies can’t / won’t succeed.  I’m just saying that I believe distributed teams for the key management members are suboptimal and less productive in the long run.  If that’s you – acknowledge it and pay attention to what you can do to lessen the inefficiencies and culture drift.

Or better yet – where possible – do something about it.

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  • Mark -

    I completely agree with you, however, I think it's important to consider that in some startup situations it's not a question of the most optimum arrangement, maximizing productivity, or increasing efficiencies...it's a matter of taking that first step (JFDI). It's a zero sum game for some founders. For these founders, their startup is born from a solid idea, tenacity, and the will to create a Phoenix from the ashes. They need an initial team and if limited resources force them into a distributed team situation then so be it. For some founders, creating a $20 million company vs. never creating anything at all is an easy decision. By no means am I saying that this is an ideal strategy/situation. I just believe it's one that some founders face and I can't fault them for embracing the "by any means necessary" ethos. I was fortunate enough to assemble a great team that has its core members local but if I felt as though I was put in a situation that called for a distributed team vs. nothing, I would have JFDI and bought the water cooler at a later date.
  • Chris
    I like the story about "Danny" who fell asleep in the company bathroom after the summer party...

    Have the names been changed to protect the innocent?
  • Googaah
    As a guy that has done this with teams in a central location and with a "virtual team" I have to say that I don't agree. Maybe if this was the first time I was building a business I would have a different opinion. I think the key element is "team". You need to find the very best partners to be involved in a business and need to test those theories on both a business and personal level. We have an amazing tool set these days for communication. Pick up the phone, do a video call, collaborate through cloud computing, and get face to face when needed. I am currently in my most exciting venture, I have built a team of like-minded individuals who I trust and whose egos have been checked at the door. It is the best experience I have ever had.

    This is my 8th startup and I have successfully exited 6 others, the 7th is profitable. I have funded most of my company with Angel money vs. professional money so my mindset is may be very different here. If VC’s don’t want to fund my company because we don’t have a central team I am ok with that. We wouldn’t want or take their money if that was the prerequisite.

    This post shows me the extent of how disconnected VC’s are to reality. I respect Mark for his past but he sounds just like every other VC with this post. I think he has completely turned to the darkside.
  • Ecommerce
    The basic principal of this article are true that communication with humans face to face is better is true. Of course brain waves transmit better with close proximity and all sorts of magic happens you don't see. But to say that you shouldn't fund a start-up with a remote team is like a man saying you as a man shouldn't date young women because they tend to cheat. Or that investors should stop funding Wal-Mart today because all of that crap + the logistics to get it here is foreign . People are going to read this article, take it as Bible Truth and go with it. The startups looking for funding are going to have to find another way, and eventually when the energy shifts to the other side, investors cash will become useless. Especially when everyone starts to look towards no-cost start-up. Then you will have less demand and be sorry you treated those remote-teamed start-ups with such disrespect. This is "Why you should never write 'Why you should never' articles that put an actual living group of people on the 'never' side". This article should have been a "x Vs x2" article.
  • Apologies for the 2nd post...issues w/ disqus.
  • I agree with much of what is said here, but I think the headline is a bit deceiving. The facts that companies are built on common beliefs/cultures and getting people around a table consistently to discuss the company/product etc are certainly critical.

    That being said, I think the benefit of working with remote teams depends upon where you are in the life-cycle of your startup. I think it actually makes sense to have a remote team in some of the early phase work of a tech development project. It allows you to bring great talent to bear on the project while spending less then you would have to normally. If the main entrepreneurs "running" the company can capably manage remote teams then it can often have good results. From my personal experience I am self funding a start-up with a couple of main team members and remote designers and developers all based on the US. We have had talks with those partners about their interest in joining full time were we to secure funding, but while we are getting our product to Alpha and Beta testing, we have kept our costs down and innovation high while trying to build a product we feel worthy of receiving funding. As you have reiterated in the past, it is always better to try and get something built then attempt to raise money with a presentation and a pitch.

    In our case the remote team serves its purpose: access to great talent that would otherwise require large compensation, so an actual functioning product can communicate the core vision of the founders and give an investor a palpable example of what they are investing in and why.

    I have heard you talk about your belief that entrepreneurs should do it themselves w/o multiple partners and reseed funding to support salaries and taking on multiple partners and without the ability to work remotely I think it is tougher these days to get people
  • Agree 100% with this blog post. As a young start-up ourselves it has been incredibly beneficial to have all of the key managers in one physical location. I firmly believe that although technology makes life easier it is also disconnecting us and weakening our ability to successfully interact face to face.
  • joshmaker
    If "90% of communication is non-verbal" then standing in a room without talking for 10 minutes would be exactly as effective at transmitting information as having an hour and a half phone conversation. Try it and see how it works out in real life.
  • PeterisP
    There are quite a few results that are easy to achieve in 5 minutes of face time and impossible to achieve over hours of phone or week of emailing.
    You can exchange facts over skype easily and quickly, but if you need to affect behavior or change a strong opinion, then face-to-face works magic.
  • Having spent 1.5yrs working remotely on a startup, I can say I completely agree with every single one of your points.
  • inboulder
    "I’m just saying that I believe distributed teams for the key management members are suboptimal and less productive in the long run. "

    Teams without personal assistants, daily massages, and free 5 star food, are also 'suboptimal and less productive in the long run.' Getting everyone in the same place can be prohibitively expensive or just impossible lifestyle wise in the early going, your assessment doesn't seem to address that.
  • It's probably not impossible for the C level /founders to be distributed but for that to work the guys probably have to know each other well from a previous, lengthy, shared experience. (e.g. college). Otherwise I think communication is going to get really messy when things start getting touch (which they always do in a start-up).

    In our case at Teamly, even though it's increased our costs, my co-founder and I have both relocated to be together in London. It's just completely different conversing face-to-face than it is by email or any other technological solution.

    Yes, the technology is great - but business is still, and always will be fundamentally about relationships.
  • Mark, good post. I do believe that you're actually making a case for distributed teams though. You're post suggests that as long as certain members of the company are together then distributed teams are ok and work quite well. That's been my experience as well across several industries. Thanks again.
  • garydpdx
    Peter, I would agree with your observation on an implied degree of distribution in Mark's piece, when he lists the 'exceptions'. In the end, I believe that the possibilities are a continuum and highly dependent on the personalities involved (e.g., 37Signals, WordPress). I was recently part of a startup-like project in a medium-sized corporation and we had management in the EU and developers in the Middle East. Barely half of the program was at the 'home' site, everyone from 'abroad' spent rotations at HQ. I felt that time was valuable and because I was on the road so much, for business as well as personal reasons, I was de facto telecommuting half the time. I think that the team members, up and down, need to spend SOME quality time together (especially at the beginning). I believe THAT is the real issue, not the geographic one.
  • Thanks for the reply Gary. You're spot on: "I think that the team members, up and down, need to spend SOME quality time together (especially at the beginning)"
  • Mark as you might know SimulScribe/Phonetag was a fully distributed company from Day 1. We never had a office and everyone lived in different places around the country. Looking back I think your points are valid and that we would have been more successful if the core team was together for at least the first phase of building the company.

    I like distributing people as you cut out office politics and wasted time with everyone bullshitting with each other. But when it comes to the core team in a company that has to be highly nimble being together is very important.
  • For the first time ever I've had a customer make contact to not talk about our product, but to send me a link to this post. And then a few hours, another email. You see, our customers are passionate business owners who run large and small distributed teams.

    I can see where Mark is coming from, but I also know that 99% of our customers who run distributed teams are successful. I know this because the customers increasing the number of users on their account each month far, far outweigh customers decreasing their seat count.

    The fundamental issue that a lot of people have missed (although a few here have picked up on) is that Mark is talking about well-funded start-ups that aim to become very big businesses. The next Facebook or the next Google.

    But, for most business owners and most feet-on-the-ground start-ups, “big” sits on a very different scale. A million dollar turnover inside of 12 months is big. A ten million dollar turnover inside of 5 years absolutely huge. Hell, just being in business and paying the bills next month can be a big deal.
  • Jim
    Hi Mark,

    I've really enjoyed reading your previous posts. This one really didn't go well actually. I stopped reading the article after the first point. Why do co-founders need to be in one location prior to funding? The reason is because my co-founders don't have a solid financial footing so they have to stay where they are at to get odd jobs to keep them afloat. My co-founders code day and night, seven days a week so dedication is not the issue in my case. I guess, if we were to go to you for funding, you'd reject us. I can understand you rejecting us for not having customers or revenue. However we have paying customers and our product solves huge problems. From my perspective, I think we were successful in getting our company off the ground. We are in the process of looking for funding to take the company to the next level.

    I thought all we had to answer were three questions 1) do you have customers? 2) do you revenue? 3) does your solution solve a huge problem? 4) is the market big? 5) can you scale? 6) is your technology defensible....etc.

    You shouldn't punish companies because the co-founders aren't in one location. That is an over reaching request. Think of the early days when you started your company and needed to make that credit card bill or food for the family. times haven't changed. as a matter of fact, they have gotten worse.

    i guess VCs are a necessary evil. this is evil.
  • Your start-up is a place to begin the journey (the clue is in the name). VCs will definitely look at all of those things you listed, but it shouldn't be the only factors. The biggest single factor that most investors look at is "the team".

    If you subscribe to the model of iteration to success ("lean startup", etc), then you'll be aware that there's a great chance that your end product/business will be different to what you started with. A single location for the key people that will help that evolution makes the process smoother and faster.

    As for your last point, I would argue that VCs aren't necessary or evil. I would agree that a lot of them aren't terribly useful at all, but that doesn't make them "evil". Well, maybe some I can think of.
  • Asd
    If you put it in this perspective, then I agree. I do agree that iteration and the ability to pivot fast are critical components of a business.
  • A great post Mark, and I have to agree with you. Its very interesting to get your point of view on this topic as it has become very popular to do just the opposite. To take your team where they are and work in remote locations.

    I think this is just testament that both options are viable in a startup. Those who advocate remote locations list a decline in distractions and cost, but its hard to replace that human interaction. I personally find face to face interactions invaluable, so I'll be in your camp.

    My personal belief is that remote should come later, if it needs to happen it should be after funding and after your product is off the ground.
  • The question I have is about work hours. If half of your development team likes to come in at 3pm and stay until 11pm, are you accomplishing any meaningful bonding during those times? Is the benefit substantial enough to be worth it in these very slim margins? I think it probably is, but I want to see what others think as well.
  • Paul
    Thanks, Willis - you made the point I was going to make! Tech teams in particular need more "maker time", not "manager time", so they will come and go at different hours or sequester themselves into corners with headphones on and not be chatting. It's the nature of the work.

    As a CTO who works remotely for a small company, and has an entire team that works remotely, I can say that Mark has his opinions, but I don't agree with them and have proven that you can do everything that he says you can't with remote teams. The ability to tap into a talent pool is so much more powerful than geographic limitations.

    The Institute for Global Work out of Boston University's School of Management is working with companies on this issue. Remote teams can collaborate and be effective. The future of work is small teams that come and go as needed, not all in one place. I see it happen in large and small companies very successfully.
  • Matthew
    For the last 5 years, I have worked for a startup. I spent 2 years with the founding team, then moved to the Valley to help with customer support and sales. The last year I've been working abroad from Guadalajara, Mexico (due to my wife studying for a degree).

    While I don't think it's impossible for a team to work well apart, I do agree that it adds additional risk. For the first 4 years of our startup, every person we hired that was not co-located with the founding team didn't perform at the level we needed. I feel reasonably convinced that part of the reason they didn't deliver the value was due to distance.

    A bigger challenge that I've faced, even though I have very good relationships with all the members of the teams, is one of relational context. Every startup faces very difficult challenges that must be resolved and if you lack enough understanding of your colleagues whole life, it can put extra tension on the relationships. I wrote a blog about this problem:
    http://blog.brinkofchaos.com/2009/10/attention/the-original-ambient-intimacy-meeting-face-to-face

    Lately, I've been doing Video Skype with one of my colleague and have found it an excellent way to start bridging the gap of being distant. The other way I manage the distance is to travel on-site to continue to refresh the relationships that I have.

    Thanks for the article Mark and the conversation. Very interesting.
  • Thanks, Matthew. Yes, Skype adds an important dimension and I whole heartedly recommend it.
  • Amen, I completely agree. It pains me to hear startups, 3-4 person big, talk about distributed teams. Even more painful is the "business guys" who waste money thinking that the technology can be outsource (either off shore of to another place in the country). It doesn't work in the early phases. The distance between teams is not only physical but psychological. I have built three software startups and always insisted on being physically located in the same office as every member of the technical staff. Eventually, sales needs to be remote. The key word here is EVENTUALLY.
  • davehendricks
    I worked once as the remote VP of Sales for a startup. It was such an unsatisfactory experience for all the reasons here (and more) that whenever anyone I know is considering working in a remote capacity for a startup (or even small) company, I advise them to move there or move on to a different opportunity. It's too hard to move the needle, or even be poked by the needle, if you aren't in the room.

    Our company LiveIntent lives mainly in one big room with no walls other than for conference space. And that means knowledge and learning travels faster.

    Spot on Mark.
  • Thanks, Dave. Like you mention I prefer to even have the VP of Sales in the home office. I think the right time for distributed sales teams is when you already know the sales process really well and already have a few home office reps. Then you can start building a distributed team.
  • Informative and interesting article
  • 1000xZero
    And now you know why outsourcing to Foreign locales fails most of the time.
  • Fully agree about the value of working in same physical location. We (dokdok.com) have developers working in the same office 3-days per week and from home the rest of the time. The days at home with little interruption are good for taking on tasks that require more concentration while 3 days together is enough to get the value mentioned in your article.

    We're sharing our office space with 5 other startups in Montreal. Being surrounded by people close enough to your team (you see them many times per week) yet not directly involved (they're working in their own startup)has given feedback, ideas, opportunities and connections that just wouldn't have happened if we all worked from home or in a tiny office just for our small team.
  • navarrowwright
    Mark
    Great post! My only question is what are you thoughts about when you are a the very early stages ( bootstrapped and trying to get to your initial product built) and the only people you can get to partner with you are in remote locations. At some point as the business grows you can come together and get office space but not at this moment. Are you saying that a company just shouldn't start this way?
    Thanks
  • Some people believe it's OK to be remote in company formation (see comments from Rajat above). I'm not one of them.
  • James
    What about 37signals? Its team members were spread out all across the world in the formative stage, and they still are. Tens of millions in revenue with 85%+ margins. Bootstrapped.
  • Same with Wordpress. There are always some people who can defy a rule. But we'll never know whether they could have been even bigger had they been together.
  • bernardlunn
    Mark, bigger than Wordpress? They are pretty big! 37 Signals maybe smaller but they made it without external funding. What about Slideshare? Some companies can make this work. Some cannot. I totally see that it does not work for you and therefore you don't like investing in companies that work this way. But what I am seeing in my research on micro-multinationals is that this is how a lot of companies are getting to sustainable profits by bootstrapping.
  • As a distributed cofounder that's one helluva sales pitch Mark. Will review my decision and plans for moving.
    My wife and I are strongly considering SF area, cofounder and his wife are settling in Portland.

    We began working together whole he lived on Maui and me on Long Island (NY)
  • I have to agree with most of this. I did a previous startup where much of the team was distributed. In the early stages, the geographical distribution of the team really added friction to our communication and more importantly made it hard to create a cultural momentum. Hard to celebrate the wins when people were thousands of miles apart and keep the morale up during the lows.

    I see this as even more important with the focus on customer development today. My current team is moving at an incredible pace because everything we learn about our customers, product, or market are constantly and rapidly being churned back into the team. I would personally never start a company with a distributed team again.
  • I pretty much agree with you across the board, including your exceptions. My last employer grew to 75 people, with most working remotely, and even with quarterly all-hands retreats, it was very challenging. It was much easier building a remotely-staffed services business than having a distributed product team. For my current startup, my co-founder and I started in different cities out of pure necessity, but we're now both in New York and there is no question that things are better. I have to give up more time each day to commuting, but it's a definite net-positive.
  • S_cronin
    This is not completely thought out. In science, you collaborate with dozens people across the globe on ideas far more complex then 99% of anything an enterprise will see. I can assure you through direct experience that the LHC which dwarfs any business problem in complexity, has massive outsourced collaboration that works optimally.


  • S_cronin
    hmm I sound snippy here. Sorry Mark, I would be neat to see you to add on something or link to a post on quality of people and juxtapose it against proximity of operations.
  • I'm OK with your original comment - it brings up an interesting point of why global research collaboration tends to work in science. I'm not a scientist so I can't comment. But in software companies I'll stick with my original point of view.

    Regarding quality of people, Jim Lanzone said it best in a Tweet - "I'd rather hire A+ players remotely than B players locally." That's true. And there are certain people that can be remote. But in general I believe that a team the works together performs better.
  • A few years ago when I would have been totally against this thinking, but I now agree on most points, after having been through this with my startup.

    I fully agree that personal contact is key between the main components of he startup, such as founders, CEO, CTO and those handling the product and marketing. However, it is hard to bring onboard rockstar developers if you are a first time entrepreneur, or have not been a huge success on your previous ones. No matter how hard you network. Martin Varsavsky could post "I need devs" on Twitter and get the best coders on Earth, and willing to move to Madrid. If I did the same, I doubt the results would be the same.

    For me, the choice would then be to hire mediocre developers at local costs, and have them take more or less equity as a factor of their risk aversion, or outsource the initial development, while keeping a permanent watch on things. To outsource development to Romania doesn't mean your CTO cannot fly there on a regular basis and spend a couple of days with developers. You also need to be very aware of what outsourcing entails - the most common error is to think you can outsource using the same methods as if the team was local. There is a lot of 'brute' code that can be written by an outsourced team, which can then be taken over by a local team.

    Our biggest mistake wasn't to outsource the initial PoC - it was not to transition it to a local dev team which should have been built in parallel with the outsourced development. Having he developers right next to you gives you the ability to make changes much more rapidly, brainstorm solutions on an ad-hoc basis, and as you mention, build a team that has been through thick and thin and is equally passionate about the company as you are.

    As a CEO I once knew said, everyone in the company, from the CEO all the way down to the receptionist, should be able to answer the phone and explain what the company does, and be just as passionate in doing it. This cannot be achieved with outsourced teams or people working remotely.
  • I'd add (although I think it's implicit in Mark's original article) that I know a good number of people that would be described as "externalised thinkers", i.e. they actually do their thinking as they're talking. You'd be surprised how many people that encompasses (I'm one of them).

    Being physically proximate gives you more chances to have those kinds of conversation, and therefore more chance to advance your thinking.

    One of my biggest gripes about the early stage tech companies I've worked with is that they mistake work for progress. Work is usually done at a keyboard, progress is usually done inside your skull.
  • "Work is usually done at a keyboard, progress is usually done inside your skull."

    That's quotable!
  • well said.
  • Mark, I think in this case, I would kind of disagree with you. My company has not yet taken off the start up stage though its been 4 year of existence.
    Yes, our CTO, VP Product and CEO are based in Los Angeles, but we have key employees(mainly core tech and a key product guy) working remotely across North America and Asia, and we don't seem to have a problem because of not being in the same office. We do fly them to LA once in a while though.

    But, in the age of agile development and the kind of opportunities across US, If you don't allow the telecommuting, you will burn out the employees far more often and make them leave instead of building a culture. Again, I am saying this with the assumption that a startup following agile development, they will have too many product updates constantly, too many releases and too many late nights. I had actually blogged on a similar topic of online tools some time back because i think it works very well for my company http://bit.ly/bC5Urt

    Besides, keeping the employees happy, i have experienced that even if you do not have a physical presence, you still become buddies ..atleast skype buddies.

    Though, one key component the company has done is pretty much all the employees at least the remote ones have a good proven track record and are generally from MIT, Cornell.. etc and those guys are very senior. Since, we allow working remote those guys, the company was able to recruit those brilliant guys instead of spending more time on finding ones with same genius in LA.
  • Thanks for the input. At a minimum it sounds like the key players are in LA. And other people have brought up the idea that sometimes you can hire rock stars in remote locations easier than in a big city where they're expensive and hard to bag.
  • I think you're using the term "agile development" differently than is common. Agile teams (e.g., Extreme Programming or Scrum teams) are most often collocated and work at a sustainable pace. That's precisely so you can support maximum agility. If you're at risk of burning out your people, you're not working at a sustainable pace.

    One of the limits on your team's agility (that is, the ability to respond to new information by changing the software) is communication bandwidth, and another is communication latency. Those can't get any better than having everybody in the same room. When I've examined teams that don't notice any problems from being spread out across time zones, the people just didn't have much experience of a fully meshed, fully collocated team. Not noticing the problems didn't mean they weren't having problems.

    That's not to say you're doing it wrong; maybe this was the right choice for your company. But unless a team is aware of the problems caused by distributed development, they probably won't mitigate them as much as they could.
  • William, The problem for us not the information flow that i can assure you. The problem we have is too much work and too less of a time. Without any new information change, the company has so much work that next one year we are on very tight schedule. With the constant information changes the schedule just gets worse. The problem is company doesn't want to raise more money and thus doesn't have the deep pockets. But thats not the point here.

    Coming back to having information flow without loosing any, with all the problems, the company has been actually very successful at using online collaboration tools. Actually, these tools have been one of the big reason for the success of the company.

    Maybe I think, one of the big reason for successful information flow is vertical nature of information flow. All tech information flows thru the architect and he being an excellent ninja and juggler, he is able to remove all the obstacles we encounter in terms of information flow.
    Also, the choice of online tools like task tracking, scrum,... have been very very appropriate and help the information flow.
  • That's a typical plan-driven perspective, which is definitely not an Agile perspective.

    The notion that you have too much work is a problem of perception; anybody could say that. The reality is that you have limited resources, and so the question is how to create the most value for the resources at hand, hopefully increasing your resources in the process. Optimization goes best with high information flow and short feedback loops. Resisting change, avoiding new information, command-and-control organizational structures, and centralized decision-making all work against that. So does distribution across time zones.

    That's not to say you can't be successful doing what you're doing. Many have been. But you should be aware that it's an approach that the Agile and Lean Startup communities have intentionally moved away from.
  • Mark, another nice one. However, I presume you are familiar with 37Signals? Their developer and partner David Heinemeier Hansson was in Denmark mostly while Jason Fried was leading the startup in Chi-town. That company is Strong, highly profitable. From what you know of the situation, is that an exception or would you argue that 37Signals didn't reach it's tipping point until David made the commitment to move to Chicago?
  • bernardlunn
    I heard Jason Fried talk at Web 2.0 in NYC in 2008 and he told the story about when they decided that they were a "grown-up" company and needed to be in one office productivity plummeted. I guess they figured that out eventually. But my experience with a lot of start up teams is that almost all truly exceptional products are built by "teams" of one or two (or very occasionally 3) people. Two superb developers who know each other really well can work remotely. But usually that is not needed. It is the assumption of larger teams at the early stage that totally conflicts with the experience.

    This thread seems to be mostly about coding, but there is a much bigger perspective. I am currently interviewing companies that I call Micro-Multinationals that operate globally from the get go to learn what are the tools, techniques and management best practices that make this work. I will be publishing this soon on SmallBizTrends. One finding already is that the jet plane is the critical complement to the online tool - lots of bonding sessions. Another is that being global from the get go enables closeness to market and with all due respect to America that market is no longer simply America.

    I do think it is "different strokes for different folks". Some people find they cannot manage remote teams or work in one. Others love it.
  • Paul
    You are right, Bernard - it really is about personal preference and leadership capability. There are those of us that can and will continue to work remotely as we build companies but bringing together the best talent to work on a solution. I also agree that you *have* to have in-person meetings on a regular basis.

    In fact, having scheduled in-person meetings is more effective than the everyday personal contact because you know that you must work on the tough issues that need you to be in one place and won't waste time.

    As for the "water cooler" time, I do a lot of that with my team through voice chats and quick conference calls. Whether it is checking on the status of a team member's child who had to get stitches the night before (we learned that through Facebook) or the latest news about the company - we cover it all.
  • Yes, I know 37 Signals. And I find myself disagreeing with them a lot.
  • Paul
    That's too bad, because they are quite successful and a model from which a bunch of us build our new companies. What is it you don't agree with?
  • Dan
    I tweeted that I whole-heartedly agreed and disagreed, so here's my explanation.

    In the formative stage at Peek we ran two offices and outsourced/offshored key development of the Peek itself. Both were mistakes for the exact reasons you mentioned above. Specifically our VP Marketing/Product were in the Bay Area and I was in NYC. We never really, truly got aligned on what to do next, and developed two distinct cultures in each office. On top of that, the outsourced/offshored guys just simply don't care enough to iterate and solve really hard problems quickly.

    So we changed all that. Swung our weight to in-house dev't and New York. Eventually shutdown Bay Area and China. We worked really hard on culture, iterating faster and customer development. It worked... really well. We then started distributing, we added a rockstar in Bangalore, another in China, I moved to Toronto. We have been even more successful since both in terms of development output, revenue and subs.

    Ultimately I think you have to be together to lay the foundation. Once laid you can think about being adventurous.
  • Thanks for adding the story here, Dan. It's true that as time passes it gets easier to work in multiple locations and certainly for people who have worked together before.
  • Justyn
    Thanks as always for sharing Mark.

    As you know, we're fairly new at this, but we recently went through the change from a team of 4 working semi-distributed (same city) to 9 working side-by-side. I thought a few related thoughts might be useful for others;

    - Whoever owns the product needs to be available to the software engineers. Unless you're the worlds best spec writer, there's too much room for improvisation and the biggest time-sink is having your small team of coders going in the wrong direction for any amount of cycles.

    - Want to get your CTO on board with a significant pivot? Have them sit in on the client meetings where they are shouting for it. No matter how strong of a leader you are, hearing outside validation to unproven hypotheses will help the whole team stay unified in direction.

    - Let there be headphones. Minimize interruptions and let people do their thing except when you need to shoot the shit or discuss something. Camaraderie can be built between bursts of productivity.
  • Sam
    "Whoever owns the product needs to be available to the software engineers. Unless you're the worlds best spec writer, there's too much room for improvisation and the biggest time-sink is having your small team of coders going in the wrong direction for any amount of cycles."

    Bingo. I learned this the hard way. I am my company's VP Product and I'm writing this in an office in India right now, working side-by-side with our (local) VP Engineering and an off-shored team (by the way Mark, thanks for making that distinction between outsourced and offshored -- often American tech. people think we have "outsourced" our development; this is not the case, our VP Engineering is a good friend of mine who is brilliant, American-educated and happens to live in India (his family is here and visas aren't so easy!). Our dev. team of 4 here is directed and managed by him.

    I own the product and initially I had been working at a distance with our development team -- daily conference calls, constant IMs, etc. But after the first month, we realized it just wasn't the same as instant in-person availability. So we quickly decided that in-person was a must.

    I came to India and have been here 2 months now. Almost done, and things have progressed much more efficiently.

    And yes, I can't wait for the day where we can all be in the same office together (*cough Startup Visa cough*). We're doing the best we can in the meantime.
  • I agree with the first two points, but to me, headphones are a sign of a poor work environment.

    Some of the power of collocation comes from ambient information. Rather than forcing people to retreat, I think it's better to keep conversation focused in the development area, and have off-topic conversations elsewhere. I've written more about that in 9 Signs of Bad Team Spaces and 10 Rules For Great Development Spaces.
  • Interesting, I'll check it out. Certainly no science to what we do. When you have a room full of smartasses who are used to working from home for the last 4-5 years, it can tend to get a little distracting. Always fun, but distracting :)
  • Justyn, thank you for the valuable contributions. The first two are absolutely key. The third - I've always struggled to work to music but I know that others do this effectively.
  • Justyn
    I can't do it either, seems about half the team works great with music.
  • Mark when I first read this article I thought it made a lot of sense, but on reflection I realize it conflicts drastically with my own experience.

    Your advice holds true, but only for startups with a significant amount of funding. Early stage startups should do whatever it takes to get to product-market fit for the lowest cost, and then raise money to pursue the opportunity aggressively.

    I've done 2 startups now, and both had a significant remote component. In my first startup I didn't even meet my co-founders in person till several months after launch. Yet we shared a good relationship that ended up getting us 300,000 users in a few months and getting funded by Facebook. Even though I left the company to pursue grad school at MIT, this funding helped them big time and they are profitable today.

    In my current startup we've had several remote coders to help keep the cost-structure low. Of course all of the founders are MIT engineers too, so that helps. But we don't have an office at all and communicate mostly by email or phone. The result is a low cost-structure that has impressed many investors and a lot of cheap progress that ended up paying major dividends with both investors and customers. Analogous companies to ours have spent as much as 100x our funds to get to the same place.

    So although even I was convinced by your words, the data seems to be different.
  • Appreciate the counter opinion. I believe the necessity of cooler talk is not what it once was.
  • Hey Mark -- I agree on the diminished value of "cooler time" -- as much as I understand the need for shared experience to build culture and teamwork. However, I do understand what Suster is saying and see the value; actually thought I'd disagree more than I did once I actually read the post.

    Seems that the goal is to get the "right people" on the team even if remote. There are ways that distributed teams can intentionally work to accomplish the same objectives that are met by being housed together -- and probably more productively than what happens at the water cooler. But maybe that's the Type A side of my personality coming out.
  • Have you actually thought what your company could have achieved if all or most of you guys are in the same location?
  • could be more, or could be less. We're the types who work well alone. The few times we tried working in the same space, we found we were less productive. Sure we were bonding and talking about ideas, but we weren't executing and iterating on them.

    Coding is one of those things where you need crazy focus to be productive. Personally for me, my best coding/creative hours have always been 12-4 am when totally alone and undistracted.

    I'm not the only one - Mint.com was created by Aaron Patzer locking himself up and coding like a madman without distractions. I've heard similar stories about Steve Wozniak when he was designing the Apple I.

    In the earliest stages of the company, creativity and fast iteration is the most important thing. Regular communication is important but not so regular that you necessarily have to be in the same room for every hour of the day.

  • A lot of people say that a startup is like marriage. I don't think it's a good sign that a team achieves less if all its members are in the same physical location. It's like a husband and wife discovering that their marriage works much better if they are apart.
  • I'm with you, Danny.
  • Who says a startup is a marriage? Taking on investors is said to be 'stronger than a marriage' because you can't divorce them. However, people leave startups all the time. From my previous example, even Steve Wozniak eventually left Apple!

    However I agree physical proximity is important for any long term relationship to be built. This includes the ones formed in a startup, and is also a reason why many VCs require startups to move.
  • Neither company has yet scaled so I think it's fair to say the data is inclusive. I hope you'll prove me wrong on your current opportunity, which could be big if you guys hit it right.

    But while there are always exceptions I stand by my words. And even when companies manage to get funded or initial traction it's hard to deny that similar people would achieve even more greatness around the water cooler.
  • Landing 300k active users pre funding is a substantial early phase signal. How many early stage businesses have you funded with less social proof?

    We're talking execution of early phase startups, not IPOs
  • I don't think whether companies have scaled is part of your argument? Your argument is about 'effectiveness'. I define effectiveness for a super early stage startup as showing product-market fit enough to get the next round of funding or profitability. Apart from my startups, I know several other startups that have proven the 'remote model' too.

    Now I totally agree that 'in-person' is important. It's hard to build a culture, make small adjustments and really motivate each other without a lot of in-person contact.

    Where I disagree is that pre-seed funded startups require 'in-person' teams to be 'effective'. I say do what it takes to succeed for the lowest cost. Understand that 'in-person' is important, but not critical. The critical thing is proving your customers love your stuff.
  • maybe. I still assert that a lot of company trajectory is determined in the early days and as an investor I'm leery of long-term team dynamics in a company where the founders haven't stormed, normed and performed together as a group.

    we'll have to agree to disagree and hopefully enough investors out there are with you that many more companies will get funded.
  • last thing I'll add is that just because a team is remote, it doesn't mean strong relationships can't be built and people can't 'storm' together. As you know Mark, tools like IM can be pretty strong in building relationships. Sometimes people are more open on IM than in person.

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