I Want My CIC! … The Benefits for Startups to Be Co-Located

by Mark Suster on July 11, 2010

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This past December I spent a week in Boston to try to get to know some of the local VC’s and entrepreneurs a bit better.  One of the meetings I had (organized by my good friend Jeff Yolen) was with New Atlantic Ventures held the at the CIC, aka the Cambridge Innovation Center (no prizes for guessing where it’s located).

As they showed me around the CIC I was instantly envious.  I recently wrote a blog post about why I believe that startup teams in close proximity perform better.  I believe that first-time entrepreneurs also benefit hugely from working in close proximity to other companies.  VCs constantly share cross fund information and are therefore always getting dialed into what is going on in the industry. We know prices of deals, compensation, who’s doing well / poorly, etc.  Entrepreneurs need to share more information with each other.  I’m surprised how few people talk about valuations, term sheet terms, how much to pay recruiters, etc.  A tech lab is a perfect hub for this kind of cross-company fertilization.

I once mentioned this idea to a fellow SoCal VC when I told him I wanted a CIC in LA and he said, “Co-location is dead. We don’t believe in it anymore.  These days we all use Skype and collaboration tools.  We’re recommending to our companies that they be distributed.”

Uh, I guess he won’t be co-sponsoring a technology lab in LA with me then?  I found it shocking that it didn’t seem like a worthy endeavor to him to have a central hub of tech companies on the Westside of LA.  I guess I shouldn’t be surprised – I got a similar lukewarm reaction when we started Launchpad LA and that seems to be going pretty well.

I’m 100% certain this would benefit our community and not just the entrepreneurs that work there.  VC’s and more experienced entrepreneurs would have a central hub in which to gather.  Now I gotta go and build it just to prove him wrong.

The CIC, founded in 1999, is located adjacent to MIT and has more than 100,000 sq ft of space for nearby startups that qualify to be housed there.  And you can tell that the founders have thought greatly about creating the right kind of space for startup companies.  You can start with as little as one person and sit in a shared space that sort of feels like a coffee house.  In this space you don’t have a pre-assigned space but rather book space like a hotel.  You will be surrounded by loads of like-minded people all looking for work space at an affordable price and all, presumably, interested in meeting and interacting with other startups.

You can pay a little bit more to have your own dedicated space and you can even rent a “pod” which is sort of like a small office at a more affordable price.  In fact, this is the set up Jeff had as he was between gigs.  You can also get traditional office space for your team but you still feel like you’re part of a bigger tech zone.  It’s sort of like Amazon AWS auto-scaling – you can scale up your office space as your team size grows (and vice versa, but let’s hope not).

But the real benefits of being somewhere like the CIC is this interaction between entrepreneurs.  It’s what Silicon Valley / San Fran entrepreneurs get for free.  If you live in SoMa all you have to do is walk to the nearest Philz Coffee (which totally rocks, by the way) and you’ll bump into somebody building on top of the Twitter API or integrating with Force.com.  Or you can have a debate with your neighbors and hear how their implementing Cassandra or Hadoop.  It’s true that being in a lab can also have distractions but I believe this is far outweighed by the knowledge sharing benefits.

These kinds of office space arrangement are often called “technology incubators” or “startup labs” or something similar.  These are not to be confused with incubators like YCombinator or IdeaLab which look to invest in your company and take equity positions.

Probably the best known tech center in NorCal is the PlugandPlay Technology Center owned by industry veteran and insider Saeed Amidi.  Like most centers PlugnPlay hosts industry events, brings in speakers & venture capitalists and gives companies more visibility than being on their own.  By being in a facility like this you have a ready made peer group to ask about things like recruiting, technology, PR, venture capitalists or banks.  You also have a steady stream of VC’s passing through looking for the next big thing.  It’s far easier to stroll through such a center and see 20 companies than to travel around to them all individually.

The latest technology lab that I came across was dogpatch labs run by Polaris Ventures.  Dogpatch was the brainchild of Mike Hirshland, partner at Polaris.  If you want to get to know him a little bit better you can check out this interview I did with Mike.  Dogpatch has offices in Cambridge, New York and San Francisco where it houses more than 35 companies (about 50 people per location if I remember correctly).  I spent a day at Dogpatch San Fran and loved the vibe.  We then held the Open Angel Forum there in the evening.  It has big wide open spaces for such events.  I also had lunch there which was served buffet style with the rest of the office, which apparently costs $5 / day and you just let the office manager know in advance so they can plan numbers.

As I said, I’m seriously bummed that we don’t have something like this on an industrial scale yet in LA.  I’ve been to the CoLoft in Santa Monica and it’s certainly a great start.  CoLoft has similar features in that it is managed office space with other tech firms and they run regular events in their offices.  But I now want something more industrial scale – the next size up.  And I’m going to put my brain (and maybe some dollars) into fixing this problem.  I don’t think having a few facilities in a city is competitive – hopefully we’ll find a way to make it collaborative.

If anyone has experience, advice or dollars and wants to help please be in touch.  Anyone have positive or negative experience in such an incubator? Do tell …

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  • mrbellavia
    @msuster - is 12,000sq ft in van nuys big enough and not too far out of the way? i know it's not weho (where i live) and it's not as glamorous as santa monica, but it's a fully wired building (t3) and built out for over 100 stations in multiple kinds of configurations. it's right off the 405 and near the orange line.
  • Katchison Atchison
    Hi Mark,

    I like your summary of the advantages of co-location. Our faculty are reporting those exact benefits for first entrepreneurs in the UCLA CNSI incubator. If you haven't been over to see our first step incubation strategies, please give me a call and come visit. We are also very interested in a next size up co-location set-up on the Westside, and several people are looking at the possibilities. If others are as well, let's discuss.

    Kathryn Atchison, UCLA
  • Hi Mark,

    Sorry, I'm a bit late commenting on your post, but I have been to CoLoft for the TechCrunch MeetUp and had a great experience. I had the chance to talk with Cameron and some of the other companies that regularly work there and heard nothing but positive things. In fact, I'm lobbying to get a CoLoft here in Orange County (where I'm at.)

    However, I stumbled on this site the other day: http://www.blankspaces.com. I tried to read through all the comments but didn't see any mention. I have not had a chance to see it in person, but I wanted to share.
  • Mark,

    Recent UCLA grad here. There's actually an incubator on the UCLA campus in the CNSI building.

    http://www.cnsi.ucla.edu/staticpages/incubation

    It houses 8-10 startups and offers 2000 sq ft. of space each. Currently none of the startups are software companies and are all developing UCLA IP. However, UCLA doesn't take any equity in the companies.

    I've never been there, but from what I'm reading it seems that CIC is actually leasing an MIT owned building. I wonder if we could work something out with UCLA to do something similar or maybe expand their existing incubator. I think something in proximity to a university would be great for students (exposure to startups) and entrepreneurs (free interns) alike.

    It really is one of my dreams to see a thriving LA startup scene and I would love to work with you on this if you'd allow it. Although I don't have specific experience in starting incubators, I would be dedicated and could be your arms and legs since you do have a day job (blogging of course).
  • I agree with the benefits to the community.. what's your vision of how this is funded and the return for investors? Seems like you have at least these options:

    1. Funded directly by tech industry insiders who receive additional value by extending their reach. This is great but it limits your investor pool and excludes professional real-estate investors, right? PNP may fall into this category.

    2. Profit-making enterprise: Attract traditional sources of capital and offer high returns. Higher overall rent per square foot, extra source of revenue such as remote NOC, hosting, legal referral, etc. Sounds too risky for real-estate investors, too low-growth for other investors?

    3. Non-profit: This opens up lots of funding options, and you can attract a management team of industry insiders who benefit from deeper industry involvement.

    4. Something closer to being a seed VC: Take a chunk of equity from each tenant? Screen their business plans? But then you might as well be a TechStars or Y Combinator?

    Which is these do you have in mind, or am I totally missing the business model?
  • Dogpatch sounds like an excellent work environment. If the SF move works out later this year/early '11 I'll give them a look. I assume apartment office for any year 1 to keep costs low, then move to a better space to meet up with folks.
  • CJ Westerberg
    Would LOVE to hear your comments on Brooks today:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/13/opinion/13brooks.html?hp

    CJ Westerberg
    Editor-in-Chief
    www.thedailyriff.com

  • I love Brooks. But today he is off base. His analogy doesn't hold. He's having an anti-administration soft rant. Many words of truth but the absence of "grinds" isn't the problem with the recovery. Thanks for pointing me to his post.
  • With all due respect, to say "For jobs to recover, the grinds have to recover" is clearly over simplistic if not even a distraction from the root of the general malaise in which we find ourselves as a country yet Brooks surely has a point when he suggests "but it’s hard to see how that will happen so long as households are still so leveraged, government debt is still so unnerving and the business climate is still so terrible for entrepreneurs."

    While Angel and VC funds may be available to worthy ventures, the fact is that many a small business is now close to no longer being in business because there is no money coming forth to support normal business activity from the banks and that has a great deal to do with the way Congress is, and has been, handling the situation.

    Of course, this is also a subject for another thread but since the topic was raised here, we answered here.
  • In Ann Arbor, Michigan, we have the Tech Brewery http://techbrewery.org which features large, open bullpen areas, private offices, and conference rooms for over 30 startups - run effectively as a startup co-op (we're not funded by any organization, just our members).

    We've been successful in attracting folks from another event we organize, the Ann Arbor New Tech Meetup http://a2newtech.org which introduces 5 new startups to the community every month (we're sadly about 1/5 the size of Boulder's event). We also host a number of other events here (including our weekly Beer:30 mixer on Fridays), which helps provide a social hub for startup folks in the area.

    More on this and other related facilities (A2 Mech Shop, Workantile Exchange, etc.) here: http://www.slideshare.net/dugsong/ann-arbor-startup-community-development-h109-1759718
  • Derek Neighbors
    We have been doing something similar to CIC at http://gangplankhq.com for the last three years. We have a location in Chandler, AZ and one on the campus of University of Utah in Salt Lake City. We have been asked to open LA and SD locations and are working with someone on an Altlanta, GA location. If you are serious about LA drop us a line we'd love to help.
  • As I type this message, I'm skyping with three developers in the Ukraine before they leave for the day, finalizing a legal document with an attorney in Israel, and negotiating deal terms with three new business partners in Germany, Belarus and Spain.

    As much as I enjoy navigating the satellite ecosystem I work in, there is nothing like working in the same room with a team, getting ideas on a whiteboard, inviting outside observers to provide feedback, and iterating from there.

    Sure, there are plenty of tools to help close the gap for distributed teams, but I don't understand how anyone could argue that this should be the norm. Why introduce that much risk to a young company?

    Proximity and feedback are the lifeblood of great products. "That's the way you do it."
  • Does anyone know of any tech labs in the UK?
  • As mentioned above, there is newly opened @techhub (hurray!), and there is also @whitebearyard, @songkick offices, @overheardatmoo offices, @playfire offices, Talk Talk offices (http://bit.ly/c7bduS) and outside of London there is @DifferenceEngin -- to name but a few
  • Ian Graham
    Hi Mark,

    We have been in operation at www.thecodefactory.ca for just over two years. The facility is intended to be self sustaining (which IMHO is extremely important) and have plenty of incidents in organic and engineered collaboration. My experience is that it is really the sum of all little things really make all the difference in facilitating a great environment.

    In terms of stats we have had; 400+ events in 2 years, facilitated 20 jobs (2009), 3 connections per day, launched 2 start-ups and over 100 companies in residence full and part time.

    Please feel free to get in touch ian[at]thecodefactory[dot]ca

    Best,

    Ian Graham
  • Happy to help you start one. We have Gangplank in Chandler and I ran one in Mesa all spring.
  • Daniel Kim
    Mark, great timing on this post as I have been researching co-working location possibilities in SoCal (specifically OC). I read Nivi's quick post on VentureHacks on some co-location options in the Bay Area, but great to see some focus down south! If you do get something going and there are part time options available, I would definitely make the drive up the 405 to hang out and do some work with like minded folks in LA. I actually wanted to make a trip up to SF to spend a few days at a co-location spot but LA would obviously be better on the wallet. Looking forward to progression in this area Mark and if you decide on branching out, definitely consider Irvine!! =)
  • djdan85
    Great post, again, Mark. I would love to see another incubator or shared-work space in LA.

    Theres another great coworking community in NYC unaffiliated with any VC, called New York City (www.nwcny.com) which I've heard great thing about. They are currently expanding into a bigger location.

    As I look back to my time living in New York, I remember how great it was to be able to attend various speaker events and tech meetings and drinks all within a 20block radius around union square. This was invaluable to me as I tried to meet more people and learn more about the community. This is something that LA definitely needs!

    I hate hearing friends from the east coast lament moving to LA because of a lack of a "tech-scene", and not knowing where to go. Would be awesome to see LaunchpadLA expand out as a tech-scene building brand and encourage more speaker events, tech drink events, and overall change the notion that there isnt a tech scene here.
  • Great post, Mark. Tim's a good friend, and I love what he has done with the CIC.

    I run another space in Cambridge called Betahouse, which some friends and I started over 3 years ago for just these reasons. As a hacker and aspiring entrepreneur, I wanted a place where I could work alongside others like myself. The coworking movement was nascent at the time, and I thought it'd be great to build a coworking space focused on a specific community: tech startups, hackers, designers and other creative folk -- my community. So my cofounder and I pulled together a small group of like-minded friends and Betahouse was born -- the first coworking space in Boston, and, as I sometimes joke with Mike Hirshland, the *original* "frat house for geeks" (of course, being down the street from MIT, I would never *really* make that claim). In fact, Betahouse and Dogpatch share many of the same values and goals. Of course, Betahouse is independently run and doesn't have deep pockets backing it. I guess you could call it the scrappy version. :)

    That said, we're about to expand, and one of my goals is to line up sponsorship to help subsidize space for startups and other people doing awesome stuff in the community. It's all about the community, after all. The space is the least interesting thing about it.

    If you'd like to learn more about Betahouse, here are some links:

    http://blog.jonpierce.com/post/705186605/betaho...
    http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2010/06/29/fear-n...
    http://bostinnovation.com/2010/07/11/in-betahou...

    I'd love to have you stop by next time you're in town. Perhaps we could even pull together an event of some kind. I'd also love to have you as a speaker whenever we do the next Angel Boot Camp (an AngelConf-like event I put together last month).

    http://seedboston.com/angelbootcamp/
    http://blog.jonpierce.com/post/698262425/angel-...

    Catch you on Twitter. I'm @jonpierce.
  • thanks, Jon. Great to know about Betahouse. I'll definitely stop by when I'm next in Boston and happy to plan a speaking event or similar. I have family outside of Boston so always happy to get out there (less so in the winter ;-)
  • Rahul Chaudhary
    Since we are on the topic of co-working, I wanted to share with you guys about coworking visa . A coworking visa allows active members of one space, when traveling, to use another coworking space, gratis. Terms vary from space to space, with regard to hours of operation, reservation requirements, etc.

    Here is a link for further information, http://coworking.pbworks.com/CoworkingVisa
  • Cool. Great idea! Thanks for posting.
  • Mark, I completely agree re: value of startup cross-pollination, -especially- for a first time entrepreneur. We started our company in Maine and as much as we tried to connect ourselves, we didn't have peers in the consumer internet space there. Boston is only a 2 hour train ride, but it wasn't until we were part of the inaugural TechStars class that we built a meaningful network of peer entrepreneurs and mentors in Boston. TechStars is cross-pollination on crack -- a consistent flow of mentors and investors are injected into a single office where ten teams work 24/7 for three months.

    When TechStars ended, we were set to completely relocate back to Maine, but I was challenged by Matt Galligan at SimpleGeo on whether a consumer startup could thrive without a presence in a startup hub. He made some valid points, and Nabeel Hyatt was generous enough to lease us a couple of desks from Conduit Labs in Central Square on the cheap, and we've been benefiting from it ever since. Right next to us in the building is Shareaholic, and below us is oneforty. Nabeel, Laura, and Jay are more experienced CEO's than I am, and between Dogpatch, CIC, Betahouse, and a bunch of other startups close by, it'd be impossible NOT to form close ties and leverage the connections and support system that comes along with that. I don't regret the decision and I'm 100% certain we wouldn't have reached the milestones we have without these resources. The example of sensitive areas like compensation, valuations, terms, vendor costs, etc. is spot on; to gather data points on what is typical/acceptable requires a fairly healthy network.

    We've leveraged Skype, HipChat, and done multi-point standups with Oovoo, but inevitably there is friction in this kind of communication that just isn't there when you're face-to-face. The same bonds don't form over the internet that can form being in close proximity with others going through the same challenges, and working similarly hard. Distributed teams can't replace the same type of cohesiveness or even just impromptu strategizing that a tight-knit team working together can. Semi-monthly 'sync' meetings are nice, but in the early-stage startup world, things change to often to even justify the overhead which isn't required working within shouting distance. Incidentally, Matt Galligan just wrote a blog about his decision to relocate (if but temporarily, in his mind) to SF from Boulder for this very reason (team is largely in SF) here: http://mgalligan.com/post/803003647/moving
  • Perfectly written response. Thank you.
  • Great post and I fully agree on your insights. We are working to start something similar here in LA through Loomic Labs (http://loomiclabs.com). Would love to discuss with you further.
  • Thanks. I checked out the site. If it makes sense then we'll reach out to you as our plans develop.
  • 00alice
    Hello there. Co-location is certainly an accelerator for start ups - and an essential link in the chain. What you're describing in the above is exactly what The-Hub.net does - not sure if you're already aware of its model, but its a club for social entrepreneurs. It combines access to resource (so yes to affordable workspaces, meeting room hire and event space) that is hired by time rather than space (like pay as you go on your mobile phone) with a community of similar ethic. So you can me a member and know that you're talking to people trying to make change in the world as well. What's great is thats its not exclusive to one sector, so you don't end up talking to the same old crowd - just that all members are part of a "making good" ethic using whatever tools or skills they might have (and with entrepreneurs they tend to be varied and don't like pigeon holing themselves to being a one trick pony) - so in our experience there, we were architects working in social neighbourhoods development sitting next to Ethical Fashion Forum with green technologists working on smart metering at the next table and Charlie from an ethical venture capital company on the other side. The beauty is that not only do entrepreneurs want to share that "just in time" intangible knowledge of "how do i file these taxes" through to "how do i write this ERDF funding bid" to "does anyone know a good solicitors that actually understands my type of business and not just teh run of the mill template business?" but also the emotional support and empathy of understanding what you're going through and providing friendly social back up. The cross sectoral make up of the community means people don't feel directly in competition in the same way that single sector clubs can be...What we're seeing here is a massive movement in the future of work - one where individual entrepreneurs or small scale enterprises do not play a single role - they're iterative in the fields they work in to the nature of their production and engagement. And in order for them to "play" in this way, they don't feel it is possible to do this under the banner of a large corporate that are typically Fordist in their structure. However, what they really want are the benefits of the large corporate organisation - procurement power, access to knowledge, access to resources, etc. So by aggregating the many individuals to form a micro massive, places like The Hub are able to put on lecture programmes from top governmental players to Eden Projects Tim Smit, to TEDx and others; to workshops by members to help others with business plans to exercise; to sexy salad lunches where members can share a lunch and some experiences. The list goes on...this is just one of the ways to create shared experience.
    It is only possible to support meaningful skype etc relatinoships if you have at least had a Hub like or Seedcamp or hackspace type encounter once some form of trust and empathy has been built. Apologies - not the most eloquent of posts....
    @00alice
  • The Los Angeles area is ripe for this. I think that this has not been successful so far because there are holes in the model and the approach to it. Sure there are needs to consider like lunches and showers and subscription or whatever. But primarily there's been too little attention placed on how people interact with one another - and how they interact with one another over time. I believe that building a community of teams requires someone who understands how those teams (and the players within them) will interact with one another. On a large scale, this is no easy task. To foster consistent growth in a model like this requires a certain core of individuals, an environment that inspires people to want to care for it without prompting, filters that protect the environment, and an uncanny ability by some facilitator to be an intuitive host. Ultimately, I feel that's how the model will prosper. I think LA is ready for this - it's happening organically already and there are some smart, experimental minds participating - CoLoft definitely, and maybe Boxador. I'm paying attention to what works and doesn't, who's involved, and who's finding success within the process. It's fascinating!
  • I'm with ya. Finding a model the encourages the right working environment is the most important thing.
  • I, for one, believe that there is a common "mastermind" mentality pervading when like-minded entrepreneurs come together at a conducive incubator space. My co-founder and I usually communicate through instant messenger on quick details; but we would definitely choose to be in the same space collaborating on ideas and implementing pivots when needed.

    There's also IO Ventures in the mission district of SF and Hacker Dojo in Mountain View. Modern architecture on the former, but I'm sure CIC and DogPatch Labs have much bigger spaces.
  • Gregmand
    Mark...my 2 cents on this post is coffee meeting hub in SoMa. Next time you're in SF we'll meet at The Creamery for coffee (1 block from Philz). Seen/been part of many VC and startup meetings there. http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-creamery-san-francisco-3
  • Hey, Greg! I'm sure either would be better than where we met but we couldn't beat the location! Next time at The Creamery!
  • It feels somewhat ironic that ~ some 30 years after coming to California to turn around a stuck technology development business in LA which we subsequently moved to the SF Bay Area where I then wrote a business plan for a Start-Up Incubator for which, unfortunately, I could not then find anyone willing to fund the idea, partly because, at that time, there were no models to compare against ~ there is now an ever growing interest in the Incubator/CIC type idea and facility.

    Nonetheless, subsequent to that early 'missionary' attempt, it was encouraging to see that Nolan Bushnell, after selling Atari and around the time of Chuckee Cheese if my memory serves correctly, did set up such a facility in SV: He had the money and the connections that I lacked at that time however, I'm not sure how that venture went as I moved on to other interests and did not track it.

    As someone who has always been passionate about "growing business from idea to implementation" (my personal slogan having done just that many times on both sides of the pond), I find this current trend towards establishing Incubator type facilities be very exciting as if it is a vindication of that long ago business plan and idea. The potential is now essentially proven; models abound as indicated even in this thread: However, I do agree with other commentators here that cross-pollination/fertilization does not happen of its own volition just by putting a bunch of start-ups into close proximity with each other: Inter-activity has to be actively encouraged and supported ~ leadership and mentoring is essential. On the other hand, as a frequent user of tools such as Skype, GoToMeeting as well as AccuConference and WebEx, I also feel that there really is no real substitute to enabling fast, easy, in-person face-to-face opportunities to occur between people by placing them in close physical proximity to ensure maximum potential return from any potentially collaborative efforts. Not to say that remote participants cannot be real contributors but camaraderie is developed more typically on a personal level. Even Microsoft and PeopleSoft, for example, suffered from having 'silos' of independence amongst its developers located in the same campus.

    As an aside, it is perhaps worth remembering that it took Xerox 30 years from their original patented idea to become the name we all now use when copying printed materials and, back in the day - certainly before the Internet - many other ideas equally took many years to be developed from idea into every day business success, so in some respects this long gestation period should not really be a surprise. How fast things do move now though in our current technological age where all forms of communications have become so much freer and easier.

    As a nation, our ingenuity and creativity needs all the support it can get and these types of facilities are a great way to enable that. I suspect that if anyone can put the idea together successfully in LA then you Mark are now the one who can and will do it and should do it.
  • Thank you, Peter. Let's see whether I can get it off the ground!
  • Good stuff Mark, would love to see you follow-through with this!!!
  • I agree with your SoCal VC friend. I don't think co-location is always a good idea. Each startup has their own culture. VCs and the startups also compete with each other for money, customers, attention, etc.
  • His argument was that even companies shouldn't only have one location and that I completely disagree with. But I also think incubators can be great for early stage businesses and for first-time entrepreneurs. Companies obviously outgrow this need and the space allocated for them but in the early days it can be hugely valuable.
  • Anyone know of a space in Denver or Boulder?
  • You might try asking @BrianTsuchiya that question since he is based in Boulder.
  • I don't, sorry. But if somebody did it would be the guys at TechStars. Worth reaching out to them.
  • Guest
    Hi Mark,

    I am going to disagree. Strongly. Sure, everyone loves the concept of these incubator co-working spaces. And they all sound and look great in theory. But when it comes down to it, how many truly high-quality startups actually pay up to join them? I mean, I sure as hell wouldn't. It would increase burn rate too much, and for what? My sense is that, at the earliest stages, they mostly attract second rate companies who have some cash and think that going into an "incubator" is going to make them successful by offering the appearance and trappings of a real office (and making the founders feel like they're in a real company). That said, co-working spaces seem good for more mature companies, consultants and lifestyle businesses.

    The good super-early stage companies save cash and work out of the founders' apartment––or they find free space from funded startups. They don't pay for office space!!

    Think about it: Does Paul Graham tell YC companies to go work out of these big incubator spaces? Would he? And why not?

    To be clear, it's not that the people running places like CIC are bad or price gouging or anything of the sort. No, relative to the market, these places are a "great deal." But they still cost money, and that's the problem. Cheap to a startup founder is not the same cheap to a normal person.

    In this way, I think that DogPatch has the right idea. The best startups will gladly take free office space....until they realize the negative signaling effects, which most didn't until Chris Dixon blogged about it. But they're close. If only you could do DogPatch without the big VC watching. (For the Record: A good friend of mine is a DogPatcher and he has reported serious problems with signaling.)

    Honestly Mark, I think your best bet is to just emulate DogPatch. Sure, it'd create this whole signaling problem, etc. But at least you'd create a positive signal by filtering out the bad companies. And DogPatch as a whole, despite its issues, actually does seem pretty cool. (Kudos Mike Hirschland!) Seriously, you have a great personal brand. Good companies want to get on your radar, and they'll come out of the woodwork and bend over backwards to do so.

    IF you're really smart, you'd ripoff DogPatch AND address the whole VC signaling problem upfront––something DPL has not done, to their detriment.

    Anywho, my two cents. Before you go out and invest in something.

    Cheers!
    -Matt
  • Matt,

    Let me start by saying that I strongly disagree back. There isn't only one type of startup. Many modern thoughts espouse the "struggling entrepreneur" existence and focusing on ramen profitability. That's one model and it works for some. Others who have figured out a business model and are capable of raising funds early in their cycles can benefit from having real workspace, team camaraderie, etc.

    The problem that I have is that many people online these days see the world only through their own lenses and anything that seems foreign is wrong. I have consistently disagreed with Chris on the "signaling problem" and there is a pretty good debate that we had over on VentureHacks. When we talk on the phone we're almost in agreement entirely on the issue but if you read blog postings you might draw other conclusions.

    So, I would just say that it might be worth your toning down messaging a notch. Here's where I take issue:
    1. "Good companies save cash and work out of people's apartments" ... really? What data do you have to support this? The best companies I ever come across are able to easily raise seed capital and almost always have offices.
    2. "Incubators attract second-rate companies" ... dude, check your facts. Have you ever seen the list of alumni from PlugnPlay? Not only are you wrong on this issue I'm not sure what you gain from trying to make such a sharp-elbowed statement that isn't grounded in facts other than your own perceptions?
    3. "Does Paul Graham tell people to work out of PlugnPlay" ... um, why should I care? I don't take direction from what Paul Graham tells ycombinator companies to do. What kind of logic is that, Matt? He is a smart guy who has produced a lot of successes. I've never asked him his views on the topic. But even if he does disagree, smart people can disagree on topics and that doesn't make him right or me right. And if you did want a "signal" then look at how many companies Sequoia has funded out of PnP.
    4. "DogPatch has a signaling problem" - this is only true if no companies in DogPatch are being funded by people other than Polaris. This doesn't seem to be the case.

    Ultimately, Matt, you don't "pay" to "join" an incubator. It's office space. If your company chooses to work out of people's homes then it isn't for you. I strongly advise ALL startups to have office space. It's more productive in my opinion. If short on money you can often find other startups to lend you space for a while - many have spare capacity. But if you are able to pay for office space incubators are a viable option.
  • Guest
    Mark,

    LOL. Good points. And I'll freely admit that my opinion is based on many loose impressions and hearsay rather than hard data. As such I'm probably wrong on a few fronts.

    1) My assumption was that we were talking about pre-funded startups. If that's not we're talking about, then I'll concede most of the argument to you. My impression though, is that pre-funded, super-early stage companies are the ones that would benefit the most from being in an incubator. But yeah, once you have money, paying for office space in a shared space with other startups does seem like a decent idea. I guess, in some ways, I think that we're talking about different things here. (I also edited my original comment to reflect this.)

    2) You're 100% correct to state that I am not drawing from hard data. So I'll concede on that, but here's what I am drawing on: At one point, I started looking into Plug n'Play. It seemed cool and I floated it by a few friends that I trust. Their response: "Stay the fuck away!!!" These were founders deeply involved in the startup community. One of these people was a former Plug n' Play employee who left to start his own company, and he had the same reaction. Obviously this is not a comprehensive data set, and I'm no expert, but it's worth airing.
    From a marketing perspective, at least, I think it might be reasonable to say that might also be a problem afoot.

    3) Point taken. Word on the street, at least the received wisdom I've gotten, is the opposite. But I'll freely admit that I could be wrong here and I'm open to ideas.

    4) Ok, so maybe I should say that DPL has a *perceived* signaling problem. I know many startup founders who love the DogPatch community but fear the signaling risk, right or wrong.

    Seeing from the follow-up comments, I think there's two distinct questions that need to be separated out: A) whether it's better for teams to work separately in distributed locations vs together in one physical location, and B) whether teams should work together in CIC-like incubator spaces. With regards to A, I am 100% with Mark on this one. And if the choice is between working alone in your apartment vs in a co-working space, I think choosing the co-working space option is a great idea.

    Anywho, I'd love to see the Suster-Space in action. My feeling is that you'd do a better job of running, designing and marketing it than most.

    Cheers!
    -Matt
  • I can speak from my personal experience on both sides of the fence. The first startup I was involved with was not in an incubator but in a small office in Venice, CA. We had the laid back mentality and you could make your own hours. The stereotypical tech startup. By just having a cool space to interact helped greatly to the wild success it experienced in a very short time. So having that place to go in a cool area was huge!

    The next startup I was involved with took the "Skype" approach with everyone working from home and having a face to face meeting one a week. This was NOT a good thing. We had issues of people not working as hard as they could or should. Problems with founders taking more of an employee mentality not putting in the long hours and weekends it takes to succeed at a startup. All in all if we had an office like my first experience I think it would of been a much greater success all around. By being in the same place you create better bonds and can bounce ideas off each other more easily. There is a culture that is created and fun to be had while making the company successful.

    Being that office space in places like LA is far from cheap a CIC type place is perfect for startups. I know I have learned my lesson. Less Skype and more face time.
  • I suspect your contrasting experiences as described here are not that unusual Jascha but, in your good experience, you did have a significant advantage that many do not and could not.

    Certainly working as a close-knit group towards a common exciting goal in almost any office environ within Venice or even Santa Monica, CA, would be a very hard situation to beat if only for the sensory bene's that come with that deal: You have all of the amenities immediately at your office door, from surfing to beach activity to beer, etc., that any aspiring entrepreneur could wish to have as an adjunct to dutifully committing to many long hours to getting things done ~ working there it becomes relatively easy to still have a somewhat balanced life and build camaraderie with colleagues under such conditions.

    None the less, I am also inclined to agree that many times, for a lot of people working remotely, being self-disciplined becomes a real challenge and distractions can be hard to avoid: Psychologically, that isolation that exists between skyping can lead to those people to begin to feel very disconnected from the core activity and thus from the core objectives as time goes by because they are also remote from the moments of gratification that come in immediacy of sharing in colleagues success as each step of the development is completed and objectives are celebrated and camaraderie becomes almost impossible to achieve across the whole team.

    As to Matt's comments, I could not agree more with Mark's responses to the issues Matt raised.
  • Jascha, I think this is common. But it's really just "lucky" or "unlucky" in the way you describe it. Some people are much more productive when they are not around others - they like to be a part of a group initially, then go into a dark room, focus completely, and emerge to show others what they've done; they gain energy from that process. These kinds of people are *awesome* over Skype.

    Others gain energy from the group (or sometimes just being around other people). These kinds tend to hang out in coffee houses or coworking spaces or similar venues because they are energized by the interaction. These people are awesome in incubator settings.

    This is general, and there are loads of exceptions I'm sure. To make it more complicated, a typical team has a mixture. And to add complication to complication, many people don't really know what they prefer because they don't track personal work habits and productivity.

    Pathetic humans. ; P
  • Chris, I agree there are a few types of people. The best thing about having a space at least is they can crawl into a corner and IM us from there if need be. ;) Plus liberal "in office" work hours lets the coders who like to get jacked up on Red Bull till 4am the ability to still do so.
  • Ha! Exactly : )
  • Jennifer 667
    Lots of comments on the financial worth and costs of the space; I'd like to volunteer to collaborate in designing and launching a space like this. We have a couple co-location spaces in Columbus, OH but only one communication/collaboration/entrepreneurial space located in the area. Seems like we're lacking one next to Ohio State University - am I wrong? At any rate, count me in to collaborate via ....Skype.
  • thank you. what are your skills / your background?
  • I was at P&P Tech Center in Sunnyvale last week, and someone mentioned that they're expanding to LA. I didn't confirm it with anyone, but a quick glance at their website indicates intent if not action. http://www.plugandplaytechcenter.com/aboutus/locations.php#soca
  • Yeah, but they put their facility in downtown LA! That's good for some but not for many. Most of the tech scene in LA is from the Westside to West Hollywood (with strong pockets in the San Fernando Valley, South Bay, Pasadena and downtown. But I think an incubator needs to be between WS and WH.
  • As somebody who slogs the 30 miles from Pasadena to Santa Monica most days, I think the accretion of tech on the west side ignores some of the realities of Los Angeles geography. There are no convenient train lines there, and the traffic flow in and out is dreadful. That means that the rich technical expertise that falls out of Caltech, JPL and Harvey Mudd tends to stay in the Pasadena-Monrovia end of things (or rides the vanpool with me). Downtown LA is a lot more central and accessible, but it may be too late to fight the west LA momentum.
  • We have been looking in the Silver Lake area for our location. That is a very up and coming area full of young talent.
  • urgnetspeed
    Co-Locating is Great! We have 8 or 9 start-ups, a VC and an angel investor sharing space here in New York. (Madison Logic, Urgent Group, Metamorphic, Belgrave Trust, Zoomino, etc.) Sharing ideas lets us all move super fast.
  • We are working on a similar facility for the Montreal startup community called Notman House (http://notmanhouse.com). In two colocation facilities I have observed in the past year the benefits are huge:
    - Pace: Nothing motivates you more than having your peers next door. Some facilities hold a demo day each Friday, so once a week you have to show your stuff.

    - Problem solving: If you have an issue, chances are a neighbour can help you solve it

    Skype's great, but nothing replaces being together
  • yea, weekly demo day or pitch day is a cool idea
  • I like the "demo day" idea. Think I'll borrow that! Thanks.
  • First Flight Venture Center in Research Triangle Park has been a great resource for us over the last year. When we initially considered locations for our then 2-person startup, John Draper of FFVC promised us slum lord type space/prices, proximity to similar-situated entrepreneurs, seasoned advice on our business planning and open door access to people who'd been there, done that. He also promised us great coffee, but I won't hold that against him ;-) Locating here has been the single best decision we've made to date.

    We've been through a pivot as we worked to find product-market fit. Unfortunately, that included scaling down our space as we extended runway for our bootstrapped startup. With ample, extensible space and no lease, FFVC is extremely entrepreneur-friendly and made it easy. If you're here in RTP, I very much recommend FFVC.

    Sadly, John unexpectedly passed last week. Without his advice and personal involvement, We Geo very well might not have made it.
  • Sorry to hear about John's passing. Thanks for putting FFVC on my radar screen. I didn't know it.
  • "But the real benefits of being somewhere like the CIC is this interaction between entrepreneurs. It’s what Silicon Valley / San Fran entrepreneurs get for free."

    Sums it up nicely. I like to visit SF/SV every few months, just to recharge my batteries on inspiration and that can-do attitude! In Europe there is actually a pretty good tech and start-up scene but it's far too fragmented. London is the best place to be, but as the city is so large and the centre of so many other industries as well it means tech and web start-ups, and the atmosphere that goes with it, is not pervasive like it is in Northern California.

    One great new innovation in London, which opened today is http://www.techhub.com which aims to be the equivalent of the Plug&Play Tech Center. If you're in London, do come and visit!
  • Thanks, Scott. I just checked out techhub - sounds really interesting. We could have used it when I was in London for sure. During that era groups like AntFactory popped up but they all subsequently closed shop. I'll definitely stop by there on my next pass through London.
  • The Coloft is meant to build the community here in SoCal and collaborating will only make the LA startup community stronger... would love to talk :)
  • Yes, I had a good experience at the Coloft. I'll reach out when we've made some progress.
  • TechHub seems to be a great idea for London, and I look forward to it taking off and doing well!
  • Michael_RightSite
    A CIC would be nice here in China too. Unfortunately, although the government is making billions available to fund incubators, most of the funding goes through bureaucratically-controlled hi-tech parks. The parks tend to focus on the short term revenues that can be reaped from renting to large BPO operations rather than using it to encourage the innovation it is meant to support.
    We wrote about the problems with China's incubators and the challenges this poses for startups for anyone interested in knowing more: http://rightsite.asia/en/article/five-steps-fix-chinas-hi-tech-incubators
  • Thanks for the link. At the growth rate that China has encountered it's easy to see why they encouraged these trade-offs. In the US & Europe we need to rely on pure innovation which relies heavily on the connectedness of creative people.
  • Mark Hookey
    We set up an office for a consulting / tech startup in CIC a few years ago. At the time it was an Australian company growing rapidly needing a new office - the cost was quite high but the service was flexible and the staff loved the snacks. Over the years they were extremely responsive as landlords - for example there was a fire there a few years back and they were sending around updates every few hours, they put us up with a temporary office at the local marriot, and did a few other things to make life easier. So ... we loved the service ...

    ... all that said, despite the promise, in the time I spent in the office there was very little cross pollination with the other firms in there. Although they all seem remotely related - google sales office, biotech startups, software startups, consultants - we didn't have that much occasion to get in to deep discussions around the coffee filter. I had a similar experience setting up an office in new york.

    I think cross pollination needs to be explicitly engineered - e.g. by having the firms in an incubator with common investors, working on common projects, sharing recruitment and training processes, and so on.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd still recommend CIC - but more for the cool office, flexibility, and high levels of service than the people you'll meet.
  • Useful input. Thank you. I guess if management does put in the effort to collaborate it must be easier when you're in the same building than a 20 minute drive as it is with much of LA. But if we build one I'll make sure we encourage cross-company events.
  • Can I give you a hand? You know how passionate I am about the startup community - especially in LA.

  • I have been in talks with a few other startups about possibly doing that. I would love to help out.
  • Mark, you should check out The Hive sometime on one of your future visits to San Diego. We (Bandsintown) decided to work out of there, rather than getting our own office, when we relocated from the east coast and love it. It's a mix of startups and freelancers (rather than just startups, like Dogpatch), but there is definitely a creative and entrepreneurial energy that is pervasive and contagious.

    We are working on getting our first Night Owls going soon, too (http://nynightowls.com/)
  • Cool. Thanks for letting me know about it. I'll try to check it out on my next visit.
  • Pb
    That's a great idea. LA needs more spaces like Techspace in NY and Orange County.

  • Good post. I think co-locating is great, although CIC is prohibitively expensive for young Boston startups (their amenities are great too like unlimited snacks, but just not something a new startup should spend money on). Dogpatch on the other hand is a great service and brilliant idea from Polaris to offer free space. As far as I can tell as well, there is not a marked negative signalling effect if Polaris doesn't invest in your round (which was a concern for many startups).

    I would still not discount Skype though. The strongest relationships for most people of my generation are often built on IM. I personally have a long list of founders and investors on Skype/ Gtalk on both coasts that I can reach out to for quick questions or long debates whenever we're both in the mood.


  • I'm going to sound old for saying this, but I find IM to be a mediocre way of accomplishing what needs to get done from a productivity standpoint.

    If a partner or co-worker has something to say to me, I want to listen completely (and vice versa). I think IM is disruptive, and people tend to not think before they type-- so there's a lot of back and forth.

    I like face-to-face time, and video or phone if that's not available. I'm not a huge fan of IM
  • IM works really well for casual relationship building for busy people. There is no pressure involved - it's expected that both parties are working on something else. Thereby you can have a lot more contact with people who are normally too busy to schedule coffee or calls with (almost every serious founder)

    It's also a great way to get to know someone remotely. IM is the main tool I use to communicate with our partners in Asia - who don't feel as comfortable with spoken English as written English. This is because English is taught in a very academic fashion in most foreign countries, so they don't understand slang or fast speech well.

    Frankly I wish more people of older generations used IM, both customers and investors. Mark is a great user of it, and I bet he gets to know a lot more entrepreneurs that way. It becomes a platform for a solid relationship in real-life as well.
  • Agreed on the casual relationship building-- I do use it often for conversation. I think the issue I take with IM is when people attempt to use it as part of a process-- it's not a great way to get things accomplished beyond building a personal relationship.
  • Tim Rowe
    Rajat, not sure where you got your pricing information, but Cambridge Innovation Center starts at $250/person/month, which is half the price of Polaris' DogPatch when they ask you to pay. And our $250 service includes all those "expensive" snacks. I calculate this is about the same price as going to Starbucks every day if you pay them back by buying a couple of lattes and a pastry. If Polaris (or any other VC) wants to give you free space, that can be a great option for a lot of startups, but they probably will not keep doing it as you grow (unless they invest). This is where CIC comes in. We house companies as they grow. Hubspot, which started as just 1 person at CIC, is now well over a hundred and is just getting ready to move into traditional leased space. With over $1B invested in the companies that got started at CIC, it seems at least some people think that we do make sense for startups. Here is the $1 billion data:

    http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2009/12/03/startups-affiliated-with-cambridge-innovation-center-pass-1-billion-in-venture-funding/
  • @titudeAdjust
    CIC rocks! The only "but" I'd put on that is not CIC-specific: you need a certain density of people to make something like CIC or DogPatch work. For those of us on Rte 128, for instance, the clear benefits of the CIC must be weighed against a commute into town. CIC Waltham anyone?

    (To answer my own question, note that Highland hosts a bunch of companies at its offices on the Waltham/Lexington line.)

    Tim -- Given your experience and the evolution of the CIC, you might want to comment on Mark's commentary about the difference between the CIC and equity-holding incubators. In return, here's a free plug for the Venture Cafe http://www.theventurecafe.com/ :-)
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